Meditations

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Anteroinen
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Re: Meditations

Post by Anteroinen »

Redafro wrote:
But how to discern who is wrong or right? By evaluating pragmatic value and testing.
Well, do you mean deciding who you agree with, or judging others? I'm not so concerned about judging who is right, as I am deciding what I believe. Evaluating other people's beliefs, and having others evaluate my own, helps me do that.

Am I splitting hairs their? XD
But the fact of the matter is that someone is always right, if it isn't a question a personal preference (ice cream). Sure, we don't have much to go on outside of personal experience on God, but there still is only one correct answer to that question.
Secondly, that so long as a belief system does not contradict any moral or natural law, and is not legislated, there is little harm in it.
True. Although, as you seem to be some sort of a Christian, what is your opinion on the currently outlawed concepts that various books of the Bible support? For instance "do not permit that a witchwoman live", or how is it phrased in English?
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Re: Meditations

Post by Oleander »

OnyxIonVortex wrote:Maybe Redafro meant rational rather than scientific?
I would argue that being emotive about lots of situations *is* a rational habit.
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Re: Meditations

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Examples?It doesn't quite make sense.
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Re: Meditations

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Science doesn't necessarily have to be emotionally detached or "cold". I'm pretty emotional about it.
Maybe Redafro meant rational rather than scientific?
I would argue that being emotive about lots of situations *is* a rational habit.
Interesting. Let me clarify with this. I think emotions are a great tool, and yes, I would say we should be "emotional" in some ways. The ways we should not be emotional however would be to have an emotional reaction, and then use reason/science to rationalize our emotions. In other words, don't let your emotions be a bias which you do not question. That is how advertising works: convince the viewer they need product x through emotional manipulations. That is not a trustworthy form of emotional response. Emotions are a great tool, and they make life livable, but they can be flat out wrong, and reason helps us evaluate them.
Examples?It doesn't quite make sense.
It being what?
But the fact of the matter is that someone is always right, if it isn't a question a personal preference (ice cream). Sure, we don't have much to go on outside of personal experience on God, but there still is only one correct answer to that question.
I wouldn't say that someone is always right, but rather that there is an ultimate truth in any situation, including what a personal preference would be, but we simply are not capable of confirming what that ultimate truth is. In fact, it is just as likely that everyone is always somewhat wrong.
True. Although, as you seem to be some sort of a Christian, what is your opinion on the currently outlawed concepts that various books of the Bible support? For instance "do not permit that a witchwoman live", or how is it phrased in English?
Ok, that gets into big questions of bible interpretation. I suppose I should start building groundwork in that direction, but I'll keep it "simple" for now and just say that there are social laws and personal laws in the bible, and I'm not much interested in inforcing any social laws. I don't think that is what God is necessarily calling people to now a days, though many obviously disagree with me. Now that really isn't much of an answer; there is much more to unpack, but I have to be getting to bed right now. XP
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Re: Meditations

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I would argue that being emotive about lots of situations *is* a rational habit.
It is, though not always, but you can't use an emotion in a rational thinking, e.g., you can't use "2+2=4 because I feel in the deeps of my heart that it's right", and say that's rational, even when the premises and the conclusion are true like in that case, that's not a deductive argument at all. You can feel emotions in science and maths all you want, of course, but the reasonment process itself should be emotionless (but not the possible practical uses of it, as the atomic bombs for example).
I wouldn't say that someone is always right, but rather that there is an ultimate truth in any situation, including what a personal preference would be, but we simply are not capable of confirming what that ultimate truth is. In fact, it is just as likely that everyone is always somewhat wrong.
Yeah, it isn't always certain that someone in a discussion is right, unless it's a polarized question of the kind "if it's not this, it has to be that", and those cases are few.
Examples?It doesn't quite make sense.
If you mean Taalit's statement, then for example being emotional about an inminent accident is better than stopping to analyze the hundreds of different possibilities you could do. In fact, it seems that humans evolved to continue to have the fear emotion for things like that, where rational thinking is just too slow. Also, when you're going to buy a new T-shirt, you'd do better thinking emotionally than analyzing what benefits do have each one of the T-shirts in the store. And I read somewhere that studies have shown that choosing by an impulse is almost always better than choosing after thinking carefully in cases like that.
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Re: Meditations

Post by Anteroinen »

Redafro wrote:
But the fact of the matter is that someone is always right, if it isn't a question a personal preference (ice cream). Sure, we don't have much to go on outside of personal experience on God, but there still is only one correct answer to that question.
I wouldn't say that someone is always right, but rather that there is an ultimate truth in any situation, including what a personal preference would be, but we simply are not capable of confirming what that ultimate truth is. In fact, it is just as likely that everyone is always somewhat wrong.
We might not be able to confirm it absolutely and ultimately but a) we can confirm it (it here being generally anything) to be correct or false beyond reasonable doubt b) there still is a correct answer. I find that most arguments can be generalized into a dichotomy, certainly ones about existance. I am not able to conceive of a way to determine ultimately which flavor of ice cream is better universally though.
True. Although, as you seem to be some sort of a Christian, what is your opinion on the currently outlawed concepts that various books of the Bible support? For instance "do not permit that a witchwoman live", or how is it phrased in English?
Ok, that gets into big questions of bible interpretation. I suppose I should start building groundwork in that direction, but I'll keep it "simple" for now and just say that there are social laws and personal laws in the bible, and I'm not much interested in inforcing any social laws. I don't think that is what God is necessarily calling people to now a days, though many obviously disagree with me. Now that really isn't much of an answer; there is much more to unpack, but I have to be getting to bed right now. XP
I wish that you'd elaborate, since that stance, however supportive I am of you not killing witches, means that you are practically dismissing a big portion of scripture. Who are you to make that judgment? I mean just look at Third Book of Moses 26:14 onwards. Further more, what qualifies a social law? Are the ones about sexual purity social or personal? The subject at hand is extremely personal! Again, how do you make that distinction?
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Re: Meditations

Post by Oleander »

Redafro wrote: I wouldn't say that someone is always right, but rather that there is an ultimate truth in any situation, including what a personal preference would be, but we simply are not capable of confirming what that ultimate truth is. In fact, it is just as likely that everyone is always somewhat wrong.
Well, in this case, one person or the other must be right, because the two views cover all possible scenarios. Either God exists, or he doesn't. There is no in-between.
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Re: Meditations

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Sadly,we can't confirm either senario.So it's up to you to decide.
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Re: Meditations

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We might not be able to confirm it absolutely and ultimately but a) we can confirm it (it here being generally anything) to be correct or false beyond reasonable doubt b) there still is a correct answer. I find that most arguments can be generalized into a dichotomy, certainly ones about existance. I am not able to conceive of a way to determine ultimately which flavor of ice cream is better universally though.
Correct or false beyond a reasonable doubt... kind of. It is reasonable to always doubt to some degree, because we know we are limited in how much we can know and how much we can perceive about any given subject. My argument is that we in the end must form some kind of conviction, that is something we are attached to practically and for what we understand to be valuable for our life. These convictions/practical beliefs have nothing to do with confirmation and reasonable doubts because we cannot confirm them. We simply make a leap of trust in our senses and the value of our life.
I wish that you'd elaborate, since that stance, however supportive I am of you not killing witches, means that you are practically dismissing a big portion of scripture. Who are you to make that judgment? I mean just look at Third Book of Moses 26:14 onwards. Further more, what qualifies a social law? Are the ones about sexual purity social or personal? The subject at hand is extremely personal! Again, how do you make that distinction?
Whow there bud. Dismissing? Who am I? Who are you to say I'm dismissing anything? Who are any of us? Just men, fallible and limited, doing are best to use our flawed reason to understand life, the universe, and everything. But to answer your question a little more fully... a question that you just made much bigger...
So, you seem to be asking why I don't hold to the Old Testament law. Very simple. Because Christ fulfilled the law. It says so right in the New Testement. I could quote dozens of New Testament scriptures that explain this, but the 3rd chapter of Galatians is full of explanations for this. One section of it says "Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." The Old Testament itself is a social law, a covenant between God and the Jewish nation based on promises God made to Abraham. It isn't about what you believe, but who you were born as. Granted, there is what I was calling personal laws there, by which I meant that I do believe there is a universal morality, and that it is based on a rational universalizing of personal preferable behavior. (Most of my ideas on this are based on a a book called Universally Preferred Behavior, by Stefan Molyneux, which is free on the internet. Ironically, he is a very harsh critic of Christianity. Ironic because I love his work. XD) The Old Testament is almost as if God was attempting to create a perfect people through a social construct (not an absolute moral code, as some seem to think) and now, through Christ's sacrifice and the teachings of the New Testament, the moral law is more individual-centric because it is not about a society's relationship with God, but the individuals relationship with God; it is about the faith of the individual.

This is my best understanding at least, which is to say, my best conclusions drawn through research and reason which I believe to be true beyond a reasonable doubt. XD
Well, in this case, one person or the other must be right, because the two views cover all possible scenarios. Either God exists, or he doesn't. There is no in-between.
The difficulty is not simply if God exists, but which interpretation of God is true. Depending on what your definition of God is determines everything from how to test for his existence to whether testing even has meaning.
Sadly,we can't confirm either senario.So it's up to you to decide.
Not universally. Obviously, various groups of believers claim to have personal proof which is corroborated by the various members of the group. I do think it is very important clearly define your theory of God, his purpose in creating us, and why he doesn't provide universal proof of his existence (like materializing over the plant and saying, in every language on earth, "Hey, how is everyone doing?"). I've been working on my own theory of this, and I'm getting close to being able to post it here for the enjoyment of everyone on the meditations thread. XD
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Re: Meditations

Post by Oleander »

Redafro wrote:
Well, in this case, one person or the other must be right, because the two views cover all possible scenarios. Either God exists, or he doesn't. There is no in-between.
The difficulty is not simply if God exists, but which interpretation of God is true. Depending on what your definition of God is determines everything from how to test for his existence to whether testing even has meaning.
I suppose that's true for some people, but for me personally it seems like they're *all* wrong. My first concern on the matter would be whether he even exists at all, then after that is determined we would get to technicalities like which interpretation is correct. But that's just me personally. Just kind of a priorities thing, I guess.

Speaking of interpretations though, would you say that there are some well-accepted definitions of a god of some kind that because of the way they are defined CANNOT exist?
Your reign is ever growing
Spreading like a moss

across rock, under sky, over roots and the thorns
your reach is ever growing, spreading like a moss
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