Pastelland Forum

Isobel The Sorceress wrote:

OnyxIonVortex wrote:I agree. I don't think humans have special capacities that fundamentally distinguish us from other animals, if for example dolphins or octopuses developed some form of writing they could have easily reached the same level of civilization than us with time.

There are some abilities which do distinguish us:
Humans have a rather evolved way of communicating. We can communicate abstract thoughts. We are also very imaginative and creative. We give names to ourselves and to the objects and creatures around us.
We are the only species with traditions, customs, culture, music, art, mythologies, superstition and religion.
We do some things purely to amuse ourselves.
We are (most likely) the only species that can truly plan ahead based on previous experiences and memories, not just instinct.
We are not the only self-aware species, but self-awareness is very rare.
We are also aware of our mortality. It is kind of difficult to find out if other species are, so we don't know for sure if we are the only ones.

And I don't think octopuses are that smart.
But dolphins on the other hand are very clever, social and self-aware. And with their ability to use high-pitch sounds to echo-locate, they may also be able to communicate quite a lot of information. They could have evolved some kind of culture.

Those are good points, I guess. On a fundamental level, some of these things seem to be based on the capability of symbolic thought, so probably that could be an essential difference between humans and other species. I still don't think that we are evolutively very far apart from other species in terms of intelligence, because it took a relatively short time to "jump" from tribal societies to modern civilization, and I think natural selection doesn't have much power over such short timescales (I don't know much about biology though).

The Kakama wrote:

But dolphins on the other hand are very clever, social and self-aware. And with their ability to use high-pitch sounds to echo-locate, they may also be able to communicate quite a lot of information. They could have evolved some kind of culture.

Don't forget whales too. Either way you've shown that our distinguishing mental capabilities aren't special, but we can't know for sure, since we don't understand their language. I think it is the shape of our bodies that truly distinguish us from most other animals, as well as higher relative intelligence. The combination is key.

I'm curious as to how would a dolphin/whale society work. I assume they would be able to build machines underwater, and eventually robots and suits to access and explore the surface (just as we have made robots and suits to descend to the bottom of the ocean). I can't really imagine how would a machine controlled by dolphins look like XD

Wow.
I didn't know I spark this much conversation.
But I want to make my statement clear first.

WorldisQuiet5256 wrote:But, if we did not exist, not have a beginning or an end, we never existed.
Therefore if we never had a starting point to which it ended, we can say we always existed.

What I meant by this part, say we have a NASCAR race, the cars starts at the starting line, race, and try to get to the finish line first.

If we removed the starting lines, and the finish line, the NASCAR still exist, but they existence is stretch. We can be sure how far or long their metal body and engine is.

Me, I know I was born on December 9th, 1994. I'm 20 years old. Thus logic dictates I will die in the some point in the future.
But If I remove the starting point, the ending point is gone, but I'm still here. But my existence is not entirely ensured as to what I am.

OnyxIonVortex wrote:Those are good points, I guess. On a fundamental level, some of these things seem to be based on the capability of symbolic thought, so probably that could be an essential difference between humans and other species. I still don't think that we are evolutively very far apart from other species in terms of intelligence, because it took a relatively short time to "jump" from tribal societies to modern civilization, and I think natural selection doesn't have much power over such short timescales (I don't know much about biology though).

TBH, homo sapiens sapiens expent more of its time as tribal societies rather than civilization. Tribal and Modern members of our species have all the same mental capacity. The difference are the technological and cultural development. This obviosly have to do with knowledge and scientific development. Exploration and curiosity were what obviously let us develop these.

OnyxIonVortex wrote:I'm curious as to how would a dolphin/whale society work. I assume they would be able to build machines underwater, and eventually robots and suits to access and explore the surface (just as we have made robots and suits to descend to the bottom of the ocean). I can't really imagine how would a machine controlled by dolphins look like XD

These species lack the capacity of using or creating tools, they lack the opposite thumbs that are needed for doing so (They actualy don't even have hands XD).
While dolphins can't create, nor use tools, they have instead echolocalization, hydrodinamic bodies, etc. so they're already very well adapted.

WorldisQuiet5256 wrote:Okay, I realize something.
The reason we exist.
We are born, we live, we die.
We have both a beginning and an end.

But, if we did not exist, not have a beginning or an end, we never existed.
Therefore if we never had a starting point to which it ended, we can say we always existed.

If we remove both the borders of our Existence, the beginning and end, time will still remains. But if we are still able to think or acknowledge "I think, therefore, I am Not.", we still exist, but our solid form of existence due to our beginning and end becomes distorted, stretch, or Diplopia, or "Double Vision" multiply by infinity.

Sometimes I find it strange how swastikas here are just religious symbols with no big deal but in the west they're kind of a taboo. Culture is strange.

^
Ever heard of the Nazis?

Well, duh, but why didn't the association with nazis happen here?

Malaysia is too far east, maybe?

Also, Americans love to dramatize their enemies, btw :p that could be part of the reason.

We call them world wars because they did eventually drag nearly every nation in the world into some form of alliance or friendly agreement.
For the allies in Europe, the main concern was a Nazi victory and ultimate conquest of Europe and her colonies, but as for the Southeast/Pacific Asian nations, they were a tad more concerned about the imminent annexation of all of Japan's neighbours.

All over the Pacific, the massacres were committed under the banner of the Rising Sun. The Nazis would be mentioned later in passing as the distant ally of the powerful empire of Japan, so there were no swastikas about there. Back in Europe, the swastika was being turned into a symbol of death, fear and other unmentionable crimes.

They both caused immeasurable harm to both of their spheres of influence, and depending on where you live today and who teaches you history, one is the ultimate horror that can never be repeated, and the other is that strange little symbol that you're pretty sure you read in a textbook somewhere, but it doesn't mean much to you...

...and vice versa, obviously. I don't mean to say that either conquest was worse than the other, but both have had impacts on the world that seem less important in other regions.
I for one, am glad that the Nazis didn't win, because then my maternal great-grandmother wouldn't exist, and I'm glad the Japanese didn't win either, because then my great-grandfathers wouldn't either. One was about to be moved to Malaya before the end of WW2. :/

TL;DR: It only happened just over seventy years ago. Scars take a long time to heal, even if they're not your scars.

And yes, Error, practically all countries are guilty of claiming that their history is more important than another's. What some dramatised American documentaries sometime forget is that WWII didn't start at Pearl Harbour

Oh look, one hundred pages of meditation. Hum hum hum.