Pastelland Forum

Doesn't count. Lets take that and applies it in real life, shall we? Put your self in a Room, all Windows are black out, there no Clock, no TV (Can't see anything on the news), and no way of telling how much Time has pass. Now lets say that this Room is in a Basement of a Building, and the rest of the Building has the same variables applies to the rest of the Building. Now lets say that Building has a neighbor Building built of exact same parameters, and both are occupied with People. Still can't tell what Time it is due to the fact that we can't measure some form of Natural Changes in order to know how much Time has pass.

Now the same thing applies to the Root, can't tell how much time has pass at all due to the fact there is no Clock.

But they are in the same Timeline, that's my point. Just because you don't know what time it is doesn't mean that time is still naturally occuring as it always had, always will be doing. With that analogy, you could say that your neighbor's timeline is twice as fast as yours, just because you don't know what time it is. Time applies equally to everywhere in the Location - We all know a minute is 60 seconds, and we all use that standard.

My main thought about this larger time issue is what Relativity tells us about it. Newtonian physics says that there is a time constant for everyone. Einstein theorized (and it is now one of the most confirmed theories ever) that instead time is relative to your environment. Gravity, light, speed, etc all effect how fast or slow local time flows. So, if you were to fly around the earth your whole life (I forget which way) you would literally be alive longer than people on the ground because of the relativistic effect of your speed/gravity on your flow of time. However, this would only be seconds of more life. (That analogy is from The Universe in a Nutshell by Steven Hawkins by the way. XD And no, I'm not dropping names to prove my point. XP) Now, in the subnet, where time and space seem to get all mixed up (trying to quote sub2 ending from memory), it seems like a small thing for different areas (perhaps because they have different local gravity or somehow different relative speeds to each other) to have different flows of time.

As for how much time has passed between the Defsys shut down and Player's arrival at the Sanctuary, we really can't say yet can we? Only that we are displaced just enough in time for them to do the deed before we get there.

Now, as to the wall of the sanctuary and the wall of the defsys, I'm not so sure I would equate those two if that was what you were doing. We had a long discussion at the old forums about whether the defsys is around the Core or around the outer rim of the subnet. I always thought the former, but Rooster and Vortex have pretty much convinced me otherwise, even though it seems to make less sense. (That led to the idea that the subnet must be finite or else the defsys would be an infinitely large wall around it. Yet pocket dimensions within the subnet could be conceivably infinite, like the loop and corridor, and thus the subnet IS infinite, though it has a finite boarder. )

Furthermore, I'm not crazy about giving the DefSys the ability to make some kind of force field at the Sanctuary when the game seems to shows that the DefSys's capacity to inhibit movement around the Subnet is due to the turrets. It was the turrets we shut down after all, not force fields. And then we shut the DefSys down so it couldn't reactivate anything... me thinks.

All this does, however, is suggest that the invasion party at the Sanctuary might have needed a little more time to breech the wall. Enough time to sit down at a make shift table and enjoy at least one cup of coffee. XD

So, if you were to fly around the earth your whole life (I forget which way)

I think if you're flying against the natural rotation of the Earth...

However, this would only be seconds of more life

I've heard there's a man in Russia who did it, he's now a 1/4 of a millisecond younger or something.

As for how much time has passed between the Defsys shut down and Player's arrival at the Sanctuary, we really can't say yet can we? Only that we are displaced just enough in time for them to do the deed before we get there.

Yeah, that still remains the question...I'm trying really hard not to say "Game Mechanics" and that Mateusz wanted that event to be sped up so we come in a while after the deed is done, but if not Game Mechanics, then maybe time is different in the Sanctuary...Either time is slower at the Edge and faster at the Sanctuary (due to, possibly, the Core being regular time and time slowing down when spread out from The Core), or regular time at the Sanctuary and slower at the Edge.

Now, as to the wall of the sanctuary and the wall of the defsys, I'm not so sure I would equate those two if that was what you were doing. We had a long discussion at the old forums about whether the defsys is around the Core or around the outer rim of the subnet. I always thought the former, but Rooster and Vortex have pretty much convinced me otherwise, even though it seems to make less sense. (That led to the idea that the subnet must be finite or else the defsys would be an infinitely large wall around it. Yet pocket dimensions within the subnet could be conceivably infinite, like the loop and corridor, and thus the subnet IS infinite, though it has a finite boarder. )

Anything's possible, but there's your point - If the DefSys was around the Outer Rim, then Liz was right in saying to Mur, "Once you leave, you won't come back," but she didn't explain that was because (possibly one of many reasons) he'll be blocked by the DefSys. Mur must be in the SubNet, he has the Communications Room, meaning that he was out of the Outer Rim and somewhere inside the SubNet (possibly the Communications Room then) when messaging us.

Furthermore, I'm not crazy about giving the DefSys the ability to make some kind of force field at the Sanctuary when the game seems to shows that the DefSys's capacity to inhibit movement around the Subnet is due to the turrets. It was the turrets we shut down after all, not force fields. And then we shut the DefSys down so it couldn't reactivate anything... me thinks.

But we could say the Turrets acted as a Barrier between the Sanctuary and the rest of the SubNet. If not a forcefield, then why couldn't Mur surpass the DefSys? What was so important about the DefSys that he couldn't make Karma Portals to bypass it?

Was it because he was hesitant to rip a Portal in the Sanctuary, possibly destroying the Sanctuary (which may be the original SubNet) and the Core that we entered is not the original? (meaning that the Dimensional Doorway we took was between Layers)

Now that you metioned a people with such smarts, maybe a connection with them and the Atlantians would be nice.

Now that you metioned a people with such smarts, maybe a connection with them and the Atlantians would be nice.

As much as I love that idea, it's nearing Debunked - Go to Submachine.wikia.com (that's where we keep all information on Submachine, including posts from the Creator), go to "Theories," and notice that we vote on Theories - Confirmed, Likely, Still Alive, Doubtful and Debunked. The user Cone has developed an "Atlantis Theory." Check it out.

But we could say the Turrets acted as a Barrier between the Sanctuary and the rest of the SubNet. If not a forcefield, then why couldn't Mur surpass the DefSys? What was so important about the DefSys that he couldn't make Karma Portals to bypass it?

It's curious isn't it? Especially strange is how the turrets are suppose to do any good all the way out on the edge of the Subnet. And really, considering the whole discussion about pocket universes, why even have a wall at the outer rim??? Unless... here is a thought. If it is a pocket, perhaps the edge is at the opening of the pocket... That would mean the only route via normal space that goes in and out of the subnet would be guarded by the DefSys turrets.

But back to your statement, I don't have a good answer. Honestly, the best answer I've come up with is very meta. I keep thinking that the only way I could make sense of these things is if there is a kind of overlapping of reality and symbol such that the edge in some ways overlaps with the inner rim/core. That gets back to our old argument though, and it's a wierd idea anyway. ... But I'll elaborate some anyway. If the Outer and Inner rims of the Subnet have a kind of overlap, then obviously the turrets can defend the Sanctuary/Core/etc. But the overlap would be similar to the layers, which is another strike against this idea, as there is no indication that our Subnet is on more than one layer. But if they did somehow overlap, then perhaps somehow the Sanctuary location is synonymous so to speak with the wall that is the DefSys/Edge, and thus to breech one is to breech the other in a kind of literal and synonymous way. (This basically really appeals to dream like ideas I've had for a story or game for a long time, a world where places and actions can represent each other, or be symbolic of each other and psychological things. So, yeah, not much to do with Submachine.) Anyway...

If not that odd, really-doesn't-make-sense (at least to the submachine series) explanation, perhaps whatever ammunition the turrets fire is able to hit all the way into the Core and perhaps many other locations throughout the Subnet. Some areas would be free of this threat because walls or locations would block them from the turrets. The locations we've been to so far would be places that the turrets can't hit because, obviously, someone set the portals up there, and we never got shot. But if this thought is right, then there are places in the subnet that, if you could get to them, you would be instantly shot. Remember, Mur said "freely move throughout the subnet," as in freely move through more than just the Core. The inner wall of the sanctuary would have to be be one of the many danger areas, or else the turrets don't target the Player, as we've visited the outer wall of the sanctuary in SNEE without being shot.

Actually, that is starting to sound like the best explanation to me. XD

Was it because he was hesitant to rip a Portal in the Sanctuary, possibly destroying the Sanctuary (which may be the original SubNet) and the Core that we entered is not the original? (meaning that the Dimensional Doorway we took was between Layers)

So, this newest theory might cover this, assuming that there could be a clear line of site between any of the turrets and the various locations of the Core.

But back to your statement, I don't have a good answer. Honestly, the best answer I've come up with is very meta. I keep thinking that the only way I could make sense of these things is if there is a kind of overlapping of reality and symbol such that the edge in some ways overlaps with the inner rim/core. That gets back to our old argument though, and it's a wierd idea anyway. ... But I'll elaborate some anyway. If the Outer and Inner rims of the Subnet have a kind of overlap, then obviously the turrets can defend the Sanctuary/Core/etc. But the overlap would be similar to the layers, which is another strike against this idea, as there is no indication that our Subnet is on more than one layer. But if they did somehow overlap, then perhaps somehow the Sanctuary location is synonymous so to speak with the wall that is the DefSys/Edge, and thus to breech one is to breech the other in a kind of literal and synonymous way. (This basically really appeals to dream like ideas I've had for a story or game for a long time, a world where places and actions can represent each other, or be symbolic of each other and psychological things. So, yeah, not much to do with Submachine.) Anyway...

If not that odd, really-doesn't-make-sense (at least to the submachine series) explanation, perhaps whatever ammunition the turrets fire is able to hit all the way into the Core and perhaps many other locations throughout the Subnet. Some areas would be free of this threat because walls or locations would block them from the turrets. The locations we've been to so far would be places that the turrets can't hit because, obviously, someone set the portals up there, and we never got shot. But if this thought is right, then there are places in the subnet that, if you could get to them, you would be instantly shot. Remember, Mur said "freely move throughout the subnet," as in freely move through more than just the Core. The inner wall of the sanctuary would have to be be one of the many danger areas, or else the turrets don't target the Player, as we've visited the outer wall of the sanctuary in SNEE without being shot.

Very interesting...I nearly didn't follow, but then when you mentioned Mur's quote (the ending of this suggestion), it started to make sense. So let me clarify:

perhaps whatever ammunition the turrets fire is able to hit all the way into the Core and perhaps many other locations throughout the Subnet. Some areas would be free of this threat because walls or locations would block them from the turrets.

This basically sums it up? It's possible, just strange we never, in that case, heard of the turrets firing in any notes.

So, this newest theory might cover this, assuming that there could be a clear line of site between any of the turrets and the various locations of the Core.

If you're referring to how it's probably not the "hestitant to rip a portal in Sanctuary" suggestion, I'd agree to that.

This basically sums it up? It's possible, just strange we never, in that case, heard of the turrets firing in any notes.

Yep on both counts. I'm wondering if this is a question that will only be answerable via SNEE or another independent game. Submachine: the Turrets

If you're referring to how it's probably not the "hestitant to rip a portal in Sanctuary" suggestion, I'd agree to that.

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Yep. I'd be hesitant if I knew a turret would knock my head off the moment I popped out of a portal. XD

I know this is just a speculation but I will post it anyway, I think Murtaugh may be Autistic. Now don't think I'm stereotyping because, I know Autistic behavior. Because I am Autistic. My reason for that thought is because of this note:

Sociopath

Why does this sociopath only talk to Elizabeth?

But then that point of view changes on this note:

Not Sociopath

- Why does this sociopath only talk to Elizabeth?

- Your question is wrongly put. You wanted to ask: why doesn't he talk to us. The answer is simple: he doesn't see us. Does that make him a sociopath? Not necessarily. But that does mean he's focused.

That changes due to the complete conversation added to the Note. Here something you should know to prove my point about this theory, Autistic people when they don't pay attention to you when you talk to them and you feel like they are ignoring you, they aren't. They are really Focus on what they are doing. Plus listen to this Note that sounds like the mind of Murtaugh thinking:

- This is just a toy. Just a toy.

- It's not a toy. It's a knot. You have to untie it. Unless you're Alexander.

That is the logical debating about a Variable.

Sometime its hard for us Autistic people to see what people mean or feel due to the fact that we think on a more logical scale. Can't think of any example, but its the complexity and illogical Social World that regular people live in is harder for some Autistic to understand due to the part of that Social Circle that are not Logical, but is instead made on the based of what people feel about a subject.

Now let me use example base on these note, tell me if you understand it, or do not.

Transcript 17/38

Liz: You can create dimensional portals while being inside such a portal?

Murtaugh: Yes, I can.

Liz: And when you do, what happens then?

Murtaugh: ...you change direction.

Liz: Direction of what?

Murtaugh: Of everything.

Now do you understand what Murtaugh mean by Everything? Was it easy or hard to understand it? Lets try another one:

The Plan

- But why the boundaries. Why this particular shape?

- The idea is to give you the glimpse of the plan. Just a glimpse. Seeing it in all it's glory would blind your mind.

Same question as before: do you know what they mean by what they said about the Plan the way they did? Tell me if you understand this more easily:

Do you see it now?

- Yes... How is it even possible? They're interlocking perfectly...

- Who needs god when you have architects like that, right?

Now I can't give you a definite answer to the experiment, or something to compare it to, due to the many variable, and points of view in each of you reading this. The best I can give you is if you did understand easily, see if it fit the aspect of how you see the world, or how your mind process data. Is it similar to this:

#1

Impossible

- But that's impossible! He can't be in different dimensions at the same time!

- Impossible? What does that even mean?...

Transcript 18/38

Liz: So... Did you ever catch me after all?...

Murtaugh: You know there are seven answers to that question, my dear Liz.

Or is more like this:

#2

But that's impossible! He can't be in different dimensions at the same time!

Why does this sociopath only talk to Elizabeth?

Now if it was more like #1 here's the result of that thinking:

- Do you see it now?

- Yes... How is it even possible? They're interlocking perfectly...

But if is more like #2 here that result:

Impossible

- But that's impossible! He can't be in different dimensions at the same time!

If you more like Number 1 I say "That kind of Mind can create many possibility."
But if its more like Number 2 then all I can say is "O Ye Of Little Vision."

I absolutely hate ripping down your Theory like this, but I don't believe that correlates to Mur being Autistic. Why?

The reason he's not talking to us and that he's focused is most likely because he's transversing all 7 Layers at the same time. We don't know if, before he gained his Karma Arm and these powers, he was this focused beforehand. That being said, I don't know if Autism can be detected later in life, but, being we have no prior knowledge of Mur's life before the SubNet, I can't conclude that suggestion.

And I believe you're trying to use the "un-answered Notes" as evidence to this Theory. I thought of it that Mateusz worded the Notes/conversations a certain way as to not give too much away and give us more to speculate/Theorize, nothing to do with Mur's behavior. As we've seen, the conversations continue - We may be given only, as it's been said (possibly by Mur), a "glimpse of the plan," as to not "blind our mind" and give away crucial plot details.

=================

While I'm here, I had a suggestion. If anyone's seen Season 1 of Doctor Who (the 9th Doctor), there's an episode regarding "nanogenes" - They're "sub-atomic robots capable of healing wounds," as well as create Armies of people they've helped heal. I had the thought that Sub-bots were these "nanogenes," and they run on Karma, thus rebuilding Mur's "Karma Arm" because they sensed he needed his arm healed.

These Nanogenes might also impact the SubNet and give Locations all these items and objects that they deem needed in that Location.

Very farfechted, but I'm curious to see other opinions.