Pastelland Forum

Redafro wrote: We could go on and on listing the details of what is wrong with the US system, or any other, but I suppose I'm more interested in looking at the fundamentals more than the specifics. So, I'll steer this back to an earlier idea. Did anyone get a chance to watch the video I posted earlier? This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

I don't completely agree with his points, but there is some great thought provoking ideas in this.

I did indeed watch that back then, but I decided not to comment on it, because I mostly disagreed. I agree that a farm is an okay analogy for the society and that it government doesn't make good things happen because it is benevolent. Government profits that is the reason. This ought to be obvious.

Obvious that government works based on profit not benevolence? It SHOULD be obvious, but do you think most people see it that way? And if they don't, how big a problem does that become?

Which is partly why the way we are today.

So why isn't the shenanigans of government painfully apparent? I mean, I'm still kind of amazed I was criticized for being harsh on government at the beginning of this conversation... Is it some kind of fear? Is it our own feeling of powerlessness? Do we tote the line of patriotism because we fear the consequences of not having big government, regardless of how bad it is?

Redafro wrote:Obvious that government works based on profit not benevolence? It SHOULD be obvious, but do you think most people see it that way? And if they don't, how big a problem does that become?

It seems to me that most people do see it that way, at least with taxes and even various benefits (the general idea being that one should take as much as one can because that's why one pays taxes). I don't know of anyone who thinks that universal health care is some sort of across-country smooch for the citizen, for instance. You pay taxes, they provide and anyone who sells something is always there for profit. It's business.

If we didn't know that, that might lead into a bunch of people not paying taxes it seems. The government is benevolent after all, it will take care of me. Finland is a country of welfare traps so it actually will, although that is a problem. That is: not working gets you more money than working for a relatively low pay. That is ridiculous.

That is: not working gets you more money than working for a relatively low pay. That is ridiculous.

Even though taking advantage of the system is possible, I don't think we have very many free-loaders. Most people need and want to do something meaningful. Being home all day doing nothing drives you crazy after a while. It's mentally more satisfying to do a job instead of doing nothing, even if the pay is low.

Most people receiving support really do need it. And most of them only need it temporarily.

Isobel The Sorceress wrote:

That is: not working gets you more money than working for a relatively low pay. That is ridiculous.

Even though taking advantage of the system is possible, I don't think we have very many free-loaders. Most people need and want to do something meaningful. Being home all day doing nothing drives you crazy after a while. It's mentally more satisfying to do a job instead of doing nothing, even if the pay is low.

Most people receiving support really do need it. And most of them only need it temporarily.

I agree with you, although I still think it is a problem that it is possible to 'free-load'. Not that those in need don't need the money, but the minimum salary ought not to be so low that someone can go on with benefits ad infinitum and be better off that way than working and paying taxes. Of course the rise in minimum salary would soon increase the prices and the ones getting the benefits would be worse than we left off, which I certainly don't want either. So, *deep sigh* It just seems unfair both to them and us.

Then it must be the American culture. People "free-load" off of Welfare as it is, which is basically taking our well-earned money and letting them run rampant with it. If there was a sort of balance to how much welfare the person needs, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

Anteroinen wrote:

Redafro wrote:Obvious that government works based on profit not benevolence? It SHOULD be obvious, but do you think most people see it that way? And if they don't, how big a problem does that become?

It seems to me that most people do see it that way, at least with taxes and even various benefits (the general idea being that one should take as much as one can because that's why one pays taxes). I don't know of anyone who thinks that universal health care is some sort of across-country smooch for the citizen, for instance. You pay taxes, they provide and anyone who sells something is always there for profit. It's business.

If we didn't know that, that might lead into a bunch of people not paying taxes it seems. The government is benevolent after all, it will take care of me. Finland is a country of welfare traps so it actually will, although that is a problem. That is: not working gets you more money than working for a relatively low pay. That is ridiculous.

Anteroinen wrote:not working gets you more money than working for a relatively low pay

That's the messed-up part, Vurn: There are people working, mostly as waiters and waitresses (in the U.S., at least) who are making LESS than minimum wage and thrive on tips. When our President said he'd work to make Minimum Wage $9, McDonald's Stockholders withdrew their stock immediately.