Pastelland Forum

Anteroinen wrote:

having found the Navigator (without knowing it's specific use), who discovered that you can be in the same "geotag," but not the same Layer.

Possible, although that begs the question - where did the device come from. One could just say that layers always existed - or at least preceded all intelligent species - they are dimensions after all, not objects.

Maybe the Submachine or Subnet created it. We know it built subbots and a large amount of structures we see in the Subnet, so why can't it build the navigator? Or possibly it was originally a device for subbots and, similarly to the portals, was re-engineered (in this case not necessarily reverse-engineered as the people who wrote the note didn't seem to know the navigator's function) for use by humans.

The Abacus wrote:

Anteroinen wrote:

having found the Navigator (without knowing it's specific use), who discovered that you can be in the same "geotag," but not the same Layer.

Possible, although that begs the question - where did the device come from. One could just say that layers always existed - or at least preceded all intelligent species - they are dimensions after all, not objects.

Maybe the Submachine or Subnet created it. We know it built subbots and a large amount of structures we see in the Subnet, so why can't it build the navigator? Or possibly it was originally a device for subbots and, similarly to the portals, was re-engineered (in this case not necessarily reverse-engineered as the people who wrote the note didn't seem to know the navigator's function) for use by humans.

Besides this point - that it came from the SubNet, as did the Portals, etc. - one could also say the Layers were created at a certain point, as you were saying with "accidental or unnoticed by humans." I didn't say they were objects either, but both sides can be argued.

Not under the definition I use. That definition being: "an interdimensional architectural construct that enables the traversing of different superpositioned dimensions".

I meant that the Plan is a "mutation" in the way that, as you were going along the same path before, it spurred out of nowhere, like the mutations in the Outer Rim.

I meant that the Plan is a "mutation" in the way that, as you were going along the same path before, it spurred out of nowhere, like the mutations in the Outer Rim.

How does that fit with architects being so good that God is unneeded, as evidenced by the note in Layer 6?

So this is the note in question:

- Do you see it now?

- Yes... How is it even possible? They're interlocking perfectly...

- Who needs god when you have architects like that, right?

How are we so sure we know what they're talking about? Yes, it must be the Layers, but are we to say that Architects created the Plan? Or, perhaps, that the Architects expanded on the Plan from what they were given? Remember, Mateusz said the following:

Pulling a patch of gravity from one dimention and placing it onto another dimention. In this case the trick was - put the vertical building in the horizontal environment, causing it to become prone to sideways attack. that would also explain the sand coming through the windows of the lighthouse.

One thing is certain - that dimentional pull was temporary. Once the damage was done - they turned it off. Or rather - disconnected the layers.

The Layers could have been a mutation of the SubNet, the Architects merely expanded on their functions, as they did with "disconnecting the Layers."

You've got me though, I'm starting to doubt this theory of mine, but let's debate it some more, there may be something I'm forgetting.

Rooster5man wrote:So this is the note in question:

- Do you see it now?

- Yes... How is it even possible? They're interlocking perfectly...

- Who needs god when you have architects like that, right?

How are we so sure we know what they're talking about? Yes, it must be the Layers, but are we to say that Architects created the Plan? Or, perhaps, that the Architects expanded on the Plan from what they were given? Remember, Mateusz said the following:

Pulling a patch of gravity from one dimention and placing it onto another dimention. In this case the trick was - put the vertical building in the horizontal environment, causing it to become prone to sideways attack. that would also explain the sand coming through the windows of the lighthouse.

One thing is certain - that dimentional pull was temporary. Once the damage was done - they turned it off. Or rather - disconnected the layers.

The Layers could have been a mutation of the SubNet, the Architects merely expanded on their functions, as they did with "disconnecting the Layers."

You've got me though, I'm starting to doubt this theory of mine, but let's debate it some more, there may be something I'm forgetting.

Well, architecture means (Wikipedia being the source):

*A general term to describe buildings and other physical structures.
*The art and science of designing and erecting buildings and other physical structures.
*The style and method of design and construction of buildings and other physical structures.
*The practice of the architect, where architecture means the offering or rendering of professional services in connection with the design and construction of buildings, or built environments.
*The design activity of the architect, from the macro-level (urban design, landscape architecture) to the micro-level (construction details and furniture).
*The term "architecture" has been adopted to describe the activity of designing any kind of system, and is commonly used in describing information technology.

Obviously this doesn't have dimensions factored into it, but moving dimensions to a appropriate superposition doesn't fit the definition of designing or building to me. To be sure; they certainly had capabilities for doing such things, but since the plan seems to have been important they would not have endangered it just to bury Murtaugh that would be counter-intuitive, since that was their goal all along - granted Murtaugh himself was a threat to it. What I mean is that that couldn't have seriously harmed to plan, or they wouldn't have done it, thus I hypothesize that they couldn't influence the coordinates between layers, at least not heavily.

What I mean is that that couldn't have seriously harmed to plan, or they wouldn't have done it, thus I hypothesize that they couldn't influence the coordinates between layers, at least not heavily.

How do we know whether or not it "harms the Plan" though? How do we even know what harms the Plan (other than Mur's Karma Powers)?

I know the definition of Architecture, lol, but I'm glad you brought it up -

The art and science of designing and erecting buildings and other physical structures.

One could say, as I have, they worked with what they were given - They built upon an already existing device, "designing and erecting buildings/physical structures." I may be looking too much into it, but I think it's too soon to say Henry O'Toole (being an Architect) created The Plan. Unless that's the point. I'm wary in jumping to that conclusion because we've been fooled before.

Rooster5man wrote:

What I mean is that that couldn't have seriously harmed to plan, or they wouldn't have done it, thus I hypothesize that they couldn't influence the coordinates between layers, at least not heavily.

How do we know whether or not it "harms the Plan" though? How do we even know what harms the Plan (other than Mur's Karma Powers)?

I presume that since the plan is "an interdimensional architectural construct that enables the traversing of different superpositioned dimensions", anything that would disable the traversing of the dimensions or breaking their superposition would be catastrophic for the plan. Murtaugh was destroying one layer, which potentially could have created a null layer without content overrun by the void, this was one of the reasons to stop him; however, if they would've destroyed the very thing they wanted to save, then wouldn't it all have been in vain? Ergo, I conclude that they knew they weren't endangering the plan by doing their dimensional shift trick.

The art and science of designing and erecting buildings and other physical structures.

One could say, as I have, they worked with what they were given - They built upon an already existing device, "designing and erecting buildings/physical structures." I may be looking too much into it, but I think it's too soon to say Henry O'Toole (being an Architect) created The Plan. Unless that's the point. I'm wary in jumping to that conclusion because we've been fooled before.

I'm not saying they started completely from scratch either, I hypothesize that they found some chunks that were perfectly superpositioned (by the dispersion of people in random layers) and EUREKA: That'll work!

Ergo, I conclude that they knew they weren't endangering the plan by doing their dimensional shift trick.

I may be confused, but I don't remember arguing that at all...I brought up the Dimensional Shift because it could be said that the Architects created that certain aspect of the Plan (adding improvements to what they were given by the SubNet - The Layers being created by the SubNet, in this Theory) and was able to easily "disconnect the Layers." Nothing to do with anyone (besides Mur, but that's another point) endangering the Plan.

I'm not saying they started completely from scratch either, I hypothesize that they found some chunks that were perfectly superpositioned (by the dispersion of people in random layers) and EUREKA: That'll work!

FINALLY we agree on a certain Theory! Haha. That was what I was trying to get across.

Rooster5man wrote:

Ergo, I conclude that they knew they weren't endangering the plan by doing their dimensional shift trick.

I may be confused, but I don't remember arguing that at all...I brought up the Dimensional Shift because it could be said that the Architects created that certain aspect of the Plan (adding improvements to what they were given by the SubNet - The Layers being created by the SubNet, in this Theory) and was able to easily "disconnect the Layers." Nothing to do with anyone (besides Mur, but that's another point) endangering the Plan.

You do not understand, I tried to argue against their actual ability to move layers from their superposition (geotags) (non-destructively at least). To be sure: they could connect them, rather like Murtaugh could be in different layers; however their ability to actually move them about in "interdimensional space" remains to be demonstrated. Imagine movement "vertically" against "horizontally" to get an idea what I'm trying to say.

Besides, if the geotags coincide between layers, as indicated by the note in layer 3, why would they have to move them? It seems that it would be easier to move the locations floating in the void, since a lot of rebuilding was due anyway were the plan to be created in practice.

You do not understand, I tried to argue against their actual ability to move layers from their superposition (geotags) (non-destructively at least). To be sure: they could connect them, rather like Murtaugh could be in different layers; however their ability to actually move them about in "interdimensional space" remains to be demonstrated. Imagine movement "vertically" against "horizontally" to get an idea what I'm trying to say.

I see, must've read too quickly...It's a lot to take in, I'm sure you understand, being that we're assuming a lot about how the SubNet works.

Besides, if the geotags coincide between layers, as indicated by the note in layer 3, why would they have to move them? It seems that it would be easier to move the locations floating in the void, since a lot of rebuilding was due anyway were the plan to be created in practice.

The only counter-argument I have is that it might be more difficult to move the positions of individual Locations rather than the Layers themselves. Being that they're stacked up on top of each other, it seems logical that you can move the position of one Layer to another area, as long as they remain stacked. Locations, however, may be more difficult to manuever, especially since the only assumption we have is that they work in an XYZ manner (how all the Basement Locations seem to have nearly the same Coordinates in SNEE), but moving one Location out of place could be "Jenga." We know, however, from what Mateusz said, that the Layers can be disconnected. Locations, however, I don't believe there's anything like that. Even though you have this working for you in the counter-argument:

however their ability to actually move them about in "interdimensional space" remains to be demonstrated.

So then how exactly were the Layers moved, in response to this:

One thing is certain - that dimentional pull was temporary. Once the damage was done - they turned it off. Or rather - disconnected the layers.

Where could they be moved to, if not in "interdimensional space"? That is the question.