Pastelland Forum

I've just noticed that is bugging me.

Murtaugh originates from the Third Layer. He could not fix all the destruction caused to his home layer - for whatever reason - unlike the rest of them. But as far as the Submachine Wikia goes, all Sub games, from 1 to 7, are assumed to take place in the First Layer, since that seems to be logical. But then, does that mean Mur shifted layers at some point? If the Lighthouse, the Core, the Root and all the rest are not in the Third layer...

Sure, we don't know what the equivalent locations to those places are in the Third Layer (supposing everything up to Sub7 is First Layer), but it's unlikely that they're the same thing. Sub8 itself is the perfect example. Discarding the possibility of "Lighthouse/Root/Core in another layer", this would imply that Mur changed layers at some point. With his Karma arm, maybe?

The strange thing is, he would *then* meet Liz and all of the Exploration Teams? I guess he would write down a note somewhere, maybe at the Lighthouse, considering he wrote his Diary Pages there (page 1 starts with "last summer I went camping", so it's a maximum of 1 year gap between him getting his karma arm and typing that note down). I don't think he would simply ignore the fact that "Hey, my karma arm randomly teleported me into another layer of existence for some reason!". If he DID change layers, wouldn't literally everything be unknown and alien to him?

I'm more inclined to believe that everything up to Sub7 happens in the Third Layer. None of these layer-changing issues would happen, and there's Einstein - a cat from the First Layer - that randomly appeared inside the Lighthouse at night, with doors and windows locked. If the theory that Einstein can change layers on his own is correct, and I believe it is, then he COULD change layers from 1 (wherever he was) to 3 (Lighthouse). This wouldn't be the case if the Lighthouse was already at the First Layer to begin with...

This would also explain why everything up to Sub7 seems to be messed up and broken. In the case of all those locations being at the Third Layer, Mur literally wouldn't be able to do anything about those places to restore them. If they were from the First Layer, Mur would have repaired those locations upon his enlightnemenmtnemtnemnt (I cannot type that word properly right now. Too lazy to look it up).

(Of course, it might be that we don't see anything up to Sub7 "fixed" because Mur only repaired those places after The Player takes the Green Karma Portal at Liz's ship, which would imply in travelling forward in time, and then everything does take place in the First Layer...)

I only have a very rough outline of the matter right now. We should think this through a bit, we might be onto something interesting that we've missed before.

Or maybe everyone already discussed this before somewhere I did not see and I'm being the biggest idiot right now

Fourth Dynasty had established themsleves in Submachine and learned about how it works, I asume Murtaugh who was from a later generation could have learned stuff such as the existence of other layers from someone, and they also had devices to travel through them.

Sub7 outro clearly shows that it occurs in Layer 1. The place looks more stable rather than enterely destroyed, probably because the only Karma Portal present there are the one Murtaugh made, we are not sure what kind of portals had Mur created to lend Layer 3 to a state were it cannot be repaired or made stable, I assume that in these moments it was all pitch black and void.

Assuming in Sub8 we travel to Layer 3, our timeline happens in a moment it was stable again.

Its pretty common also to relate the collapse with the presence of black voids, but I assume that perphaps is not that important at all, is just how the Layer is made up.

ENIHCAMBUS wrote:Assuming in Sub8 we travel to Layer 3, our timeline happens in a moment it was stable again.

I wouldn't say so stable. We didn't get to see much of it but the soundtrack for that location is called "the ruin".

WorldisQuiet5256 wrote:I wish my in game theory was voted on, its been ages sense anyone marked anyone else theories.
http://submachine.wikia.com/wiki/Worldi ... s_Theories

We should open the polls again for one last time.
Since we are not going to be able to vote after Submachine 10 comes out. Regardless if the ending has any thing left out or its open for interpretation like Jatkso neisus theory.

Submachine Chair Theory
officially: DOUBTFUL
actually: DOUBTFUL
I can't see this theory being true. It's just one of several props that Submachine constantly spawn. Even so, seeing those chairs are quite unnerving. They're simply for ambient and atmosphere. If they are for our starting point, where's our in Sub_1?

The Black Dossier Theory
officially: UNCONFIRMED
actually: UNCONFIRMED
Singular Mass... I liked that. The games have yet to show anything about that. However, discard the entry about not being in 3-D. False, false, false, false. This was disproven long since Sub_5 showed us the glorious 3D puzzle :3 Everything else, just keep it.

The Unnamed Theory
Well, this is more of a written note for Sub_Universe. Not much of theory.

ThunderDasher wrote:I've just noticed that is bugging me.

Murtaugh originates from the Third Layer. He could not fix all the destruction caused to his home layer - for whatever reason - unlike the rest of them. But as far as the Submachine Wikia goes, all Sub games, from 1 to 7, are assumed to take place in the First Layer, since that seems to be logical. But then, does that mean Mur shifted layers at some point? If the Lighthouse, the Core, the Root and all the rest are not in the Third layer...

Sure, we don't know what the equivalent locations to those places are in the Third Layer (supposing everything up to Sub7 is First Layer), but it's unlikely that they're the same thing. Sub8 itself is the perfect example. Discarding the possibility of "Lighthouse/Root/Core in another layer", this would imply that Mur changed layers at some point. With his Karma arm, maybe?

The strange thing is, he would *then* meet Liz and all of the Exploration Teams? I guess he would write down a note somewhere, maybe at the Lighthouse, considering he wrote his Diary Pages there (page 1 starts with "last summer I went camping", so it's a maximum of 1 year gap between him getting his karma arm and typing that note down). I don't think he would simply ignore the fact that "Hey, my karma arm randomly teleported me into another layer of existence for some reason!". If he DID change layers, wouldn't literally everything be unknown and alien to him?

I'm more inclined to believe that everything up to Sub7 happens in the Third Layer. None of these layer-changing issues would happen, and there's Einstein - a cat from the First Layer - that randomly appeared inside the Lighthouse at night, with doors and windows locked. If the theory that Einstein can change layers on his own is correct, and I believe it is, then he COULD change layers from 1 (wherever he was) to 3 (Lighthouse). This wouldn't be the case if the Lighthouse was already at the First Layer to begin with...

This would also explain why everything up to Sub7 seems to be messed up and broken. In the case of all those locations being at the Third Layer, Mur literally wouldn't be able to do anything about those places to restore them. If they were from the First Layer, Mur would have repaired those locations upon his enlightenment (I cannot type that word properly right now. Too lazy to look it up).

(Of course, it might be that we don't see anything up to Sub7 "fixed" because Mur only repaired those places after The Player takes the Green Karma Portal at Liz's ship, which would imply in travelling forward in time, and then everything does take place in the First Layer...)

I only have a very rough outline of the matter right now. We should think this through a bit, we might be onto something interesting that we've missed before.

Or maybe everyone already discussed this before somewhere I did not see and I'm being the biggest idiot right now

The reason Murtaugh couldn't fix the Third Layer because so much of it were lost to the Collapse. He couldn't risk ruining the Plan or possibly the Submachine if the Third Layer isn't at least close to its natural state. But what about the First and Second Layers? They too seems to be within the Void, but perhaps Murtaugh repaired them enough to be stable in their close-to-natural states? (Sub_8 and 9)

About his first-time experience with seeing all of these Layers, it would have been scary but he would eventually get used to it. Don't forget, he may not be very experienced back then so he may not know that he needs to be FOCUSED to be in multiple Layers at the same time. He was still learning about the nature of Submachine Reality (Sub_9) so he wouldn't be changing Layers too often. Murtaugh would only discard anything to Liz because she's the only person he can see. No point in writing notes for anyone else. He would eventually gain enough experiences to get a glimpse of other people in different Layers, which is how he would meet the Lab and Exploration Teams (Sub_4).

And sorry to burst your bubble, but that theory of your about Einstein was debunked long ago by Sub_9. They're just simply result of Murtaugh's Karma Powers. It's possible that Murtaugh was able to see all seven Layers at the Lighthouse at the same time, so he was seeing the cat in one Layer until Murtaugh randomly and unintentionally switch himself to see the different Layer, wiping the cat from his vision. That's why he thinks Einstein kept disappearing (Sub_2). The cat never has any powers at all. Before you argue, he could be seeing TWO LAYERS at the time now that he's more experienced with his powers. He's always seeing the Layer with the Lighthouse and a different Layer at the same time. Did he know about it? Possibly not as he may think he's seeing the Lighthouse in all seven Layers.

And many players believed that everything up to Sub_7 took place in Sub_1 because of the Layer Viewing Device in the Winter Palace (Sub_7). It was showing the partial layout for First Layer. We could see ourselves teleporting from Liz's Ship during the ending in the First Layer. I am not saying that it debunked your thoughts, but the evidences are there.

Finally, I too share the belief that everything that happened up to Sub_7 were in real-time. Murtaugh did invaded the Core and we were too late to do anything about it. We just simply got caught in the repercussion of his actions and couldn't change the direction of everything (Sub_8).

On this post:

you were going to layer 5.
on the way - you fell into the portal within the portal that changed your direction and threw you into the dimensional knot that you had to untie in order to move forward.

Mateusz mentions the word "knot". But we now know that the "knot" refers to Sub9, right? Or is he talking about two different knots?

Vortex wrote:On this post:

you were going to layer 5.
on the way - you fell into the portal within the portal that changed your direction and threw you into the dimensional knot that you had to untie in order to move forward.

Mateusz mentions the word "knot". But we now know that the "knot" refers to Sub9, right? Or is he talking about two different knots?

I thought we already cleared with this?

The Knot is the point where all Layers are physically intersected, where one can see all Seven Layers at a time (or most of the Seven Layers). As we learned and can infer from Sub_9 notes, the survivors of Collapse that Murtaugh caused had fled to the Knot in hope to actually and physically confront Murtaugh.

The Temple location is one such Knot, which may or may not within the Core or anywhere close to it.

Yes, I know all that, but I'm talking about the "knot" mentioned in Mateusz's post.

It says we had to untie a dimensional knot in order to move forward to layer 5. That happens in Sub8. But Sub8 is not a Knot because layers look different. So which knot is Mateusz referring to?

we had to solve puzzle to open the gate in Layer 5 and "enter the knot". We had to untie it to enter inside, maybe?

Mateusz said those metaphorically

We "untie" the Knot by activating the Beam Device on each Layers, so that all seven Layers are open and "untied" to exploration.

So it's metaphorical, that makes sense. That's what I thought at first, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something thanks!