Meditations

[Redafro]

Ok, I think I see what you mean. Like I said, it seems like a trick or a lie, because your right, I am saying that he doesn't, or rather can't because it is [edit: inconsistent], and he won't because it is against his purpose/his morality. However, I don't see any problem with saying that. He has omni abilities except where to have omni abilities is illogical or immoral.

[Anteroinen]

Ok, I think I see what you mean. Like I said, it seems like a trick or a lie, because your right, I am saying that he doesn't, or rather can't because it is [edit: inconsistent], and he won't because it is against his purpose/his morality. However, I don't see any problem with saying that. He has omni abilities except where to have omni abilities is illogical or immoral.

I'm starting to feel bad for interrupting the construction of your long explanatory post yet again, but aren't all omniabilities (that word seems so wrong ) in one way or other illogical, ergo, God has none? I know this an argument for ignorance, but I can't find one that isn't illogical.

[Redafro]

I'm struggling to understand your position. Are you saying that every and all aspect of having any one or set of omni-abilitiy is contradictory, or that omni-abilities will contradict each other in some limited ways, or something else entirely? If the former, this just doesn't seem to be the case, as there is not any inherent contradiction between, for example, knowing everything it is logically possible for an all knowing being to know, and being as generous and loving as it is logically possible for an infinitely good being to be. (Now, I am starting to think you mean something like, "if he is omnibenevolent, why do people get hurt?" and if so, that is not a contradiction in the omni's but an inconsistency between the omni's and our experience, and one that I will get to in the mega-post.) If the later, then yes, I've already agreed that they will contradict in some ways, and I'm claiming that they won't because where they would contradict God is limited and thus they don't contradict.

I tried doing a quick google search and didn't find much, but this is an interesting viewpoint on the subject:
http://www.whyibelieve.org/Doctrine/Omni.htm
I particularity like this caution:

we can only consider His nature in terms we can understand, and these terms by definition will be wrong (not up to par, or not infinite). Inherent within this dilemma, combined with the search instinct within us, is the tendency (need?) to create images of God in our minds. We must be careful to not allow these images to take the place of the true nature of God, which is always beyond our intellectual grasp.

Now, to clarify, I do believe we can approach absolute truth, as we've already discussed at length. But I do think that the limitations of our nature insist that we be humble and admit that ultimately we're probably not completely right. In other words, I wouldn't go so far as to say that "these terms by definition will be wrong" in an absolute sense, but only by degree.

And as for slowing down the mega-post, don't worry too much. My toddler, 1 month old, and various holiday obligations are doing much more of that then anyone here is. XP

[Anteroinen]

(Now, I am starting to think you mean something like, "if he is omnibenevolent, why do people get hurt?" and if so, that is not a contradiction in the omni's but an inconsistency between the omni's and our experience, and one that I will get to in the mega-post.).

That is not it at all really. The Christian God judges people to Hell i.e. isn't benevolent about it, ergo, he is not always benevolent. Omnipotence has rather irrelevant paradoxes ("Can God create a rock he can't lift?") but more importantly it seems impossible that an omnipotent being would fail (I made another paradox, sorry), yet it seems he has evidently done so with the law. If God is omniscient why does he converse with Jesus: don't they both just know what they'll say? If God is omnipresent how does one explain God "hovering over the waters" in Genesis, or any of the times he manifests as a being?

Now these are all arguments are against God not a god. Well, a conceivable god could be omnibenevolent although since things do suffer this seems unlikely in our universe. Not necessarily, it could just not know. An omnipresent god is rather pointless, although logically consistent: he isn't distinguishable from the Universe. An omniscient god seems sound, although I wonder why it would ever bother contacting anyone. Since true omnipotence contains paradoxes, I'm reluctant to accept omnipotence as a possibility.

Did I explain my point of view at all?

We must be careful to not allow these images to take the place of the true nature of God, which is always beyond our intellectual grasp.

...which makes this conversation absolutely pointless. (?)

[WorldisQuiet5256]

I was able to logically figure out God is good and Moral.

Have anyone of you Reader ever had a Friend hurt, maybe in the process of being Rob? Then you ask the question "Why does God have bad things happen in the World?". First of all, your asking the Wrong Question. Did anyone read 1984, The Giver, Fahrenheit 457? They all have a same saying: that when we Humans tried to have a Perfect World, it just a Stage with the curtain down. You can't see whats backstage.

Now the Average God, has created Man and Women, each with Free Will. He gave them a Paradise to live in, as long as those Two People don't touch some Forbidden Object that inside the Paradise. Now in the Book, The Giver, it is a Perfect World, names are not mistaken by someone else, family are made of 4 people: Father, Mother, Daughter, Son. No Adultery. Yet One person in charge of keeping the Memories of our life so it does not spread into the Community. When he finds out when his 'Father' had to decide which of the 2 twin, which could case an identity crisis, found one of them got to be 'Release' out of the Community what he actually dose is kill the one that did not past the Test.

Now what is horrible about this is when that Father put the Body down the chute he say "by by" in a tone that shows he had no idea what he did.

Now back to the Average Beginning of Time story. What God gave that Man and Women the option of Free Will, they could have a Perfect Life as long as they don't touch the Forbidden Item. Now what they do is they choices to touch the Forbidden Item and they learn about the bad things in the Universe.

Now our Earth has Free Will, the definition of Free Will is: To have all your Cards on the Table including the Bad Cards an let you choose which Card you pick. In repeated time through out History, Man has tried to reclaim that Perfect World, but he has to do so by mean that make Free Will cut in half. Communism is a perfect example: Good in Theory. Bad in Practices.

Now back to that Question, when you ask "Why does god allow bad things in this world?". You are asking the Wrong question because the Right Question is "Why did that person Choose to Rob my Friend?".

Point of this is God just place the Bad thing in the World, But it was Man who chooses to Commit the Acts of Bad Things. Thus God has given us Free Will.

He May judge us, but we Chose to Either do Good, or Do Bad

[Anteroinen]

Hey Anteroinen! Did you not read My response?

Where and to what?

[WorldisQuiet5256]

Forget that. Look Up.

[Anteroinen]

I was able to logically figure out God is good and Moral.

--

Point of this is God just place the Bad thing in the World, But it was Man who chooses to Commit the Acts of Bad Things. Thus God has given us Free Will.

He May judge us, but we Chose to Either do Good, or Do Bad

The fact that free will exists, doesn't in any way mean god is good or moral. It certainly doesn't mean he's omnibenevolent.

Now back to that Question, when you ask "Why does god allow bad things in this world?". You are asking the Wrong question because the Right Question is "Why did that person Choose to Rob my Friend?".

I agree.

[WorldisQuiet5256]

But at least he did try to have a Perfect World in the Beginning, Small Bad in Big Good. That forbidden item was in that Paradise so Free Will existed, the First Man just screw all of us in the Future by touching it.

But when Man tries to create a Perfect World it always ends up in disaster. Communism, Ruler under 1 Wise Leader. The fact that he gave us the Bad in the Good in the Beginning shows he did better than not showing us the Bad so we would not be Clueless. Like in The Giver, 1984, and Fahrenheit 457.

Omnibenevolent is impossible? Are you using that Scientist Equation. That Goodness is a Survival Gene use to get a good feeling in return of doing the Good Act? If that the Case why are we all not being Evil at the moment if Good Act are always selfless? I would believe you by the Logic, but I would be Dead the Next Day. Not everything can be Set in Stone. We still be in Spain saying the World is Flat if we follow that Logic.

[Oleander]

This isn't strictly related to the conversation, but communism has nothing to do with totalitarianism. They just happen to coincide frequently throughout history. In fact, the actual philosophy of communism involves the absence of the state as an overall goal.

Omnipotence has rather irrelevant paradoxes ("Can God create a rock he can't lift?")

"Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" doesn't even make sense. It's on the same level as a five year old arguing with somebody and saying "nu-uh times infinity plus one".