Pastelland Forum

Yeah, the knot is like a loop, it is not a loop. There is no analogy, and it has nothing to do with cutting the Gordian Knot as Alexander did (Mateusz's quote makes that clear).

Finally finished my theory on the Knot, Beamers, etc. Go see! XD XD XD

To Vortex's post (because RedAfro posted around the same time, lol) -

That does seem to make sense.

Just to clarify, both a loop and a knot are on a string, but one's tightened and the other still has slack (obviously, just pointing it out.) The Loop can be adjusted, the knot is more difficult to turn back into the Loop (and eventually turn back into a piece of string if you wanted.) The Loop is like a midpoint between the Knot and the string. I'm rambling now, but I was going to make a Theory that's like a String Theory - Imagine you made a knot with a paper straw cover. If you make a knot over the already-existing knot, it breaks the paper in two. Probably meaningless to the world of Submachine, but an interesting thought.

you fell into the portal within the portal that changed your direction and threw you into the dimensional knot that you had to untie in order to move forward.

Hmm...So more evidence that RedAfro could be right and we're not actually in the SubNet. Interesting. I'm saying that because we fell into another Portal that took us to the knot...And the knot may not be inherent to the SubNet, but, like the Loop, we need to, in a way, "untie it" to move forward and thus end up back in the SubNet - like how we ended up in the Lab after The Loop, even though The Loop was in the SubNet.

And I still want to add the thought that "The Temple" is a Layer Five version of The Sanctuary...Both require needing a Portal door (i.e. the Energy Trail at the end of Sub8), and Sanctuary is another word for Temple.

@Red: I'll go check it out.

Hmm...So more evidence that RedAfro could be right and we're not actually in the SubNet. Interesting. I'm saying that because we fell into another Portal that took us to the knot...And the knot may not be inherent to the SubNet, but, like the Loop, we need to, in a way, "untie it" to move forward and thus end up back in the SubNet - like how we ended up in the Lab after The Loop, even though The Loop was in the SubNet.

And I still want to add the thought that "The Temple" is a Layer Five version of The Sanctuary...Both require needing a Portal door (i.e. the Energy Trail at the end of Sub8), and Sanctuary is another word for Temple.

Nice ideas! I hadn't thought before that we could ever be not in the Subnet, but it might be...

Also, I will read your theory tomorrow Red, now I'm going to sleep good night!

Honestly, it had never fully occurred to me that the Knot was in the Subnet in the first place. That green karma portal seemed to already be taking us out of our own Layer for one thing. Secondly, the Knot seems too atmospherically different to me. They are all submachines, I think, but as Mateusz has said in one of his quotes ... crap I can't find it! He said something like some submachines have been MOVED. I think he indicates he means moved out of the Subnet. That would suggest that Submachines can exist in places other than the Subnet. Anyway...

To elaborate on the Knot's atmosphere being different, there are many things there we have not seen in the Subnet: phenomenons in the sky (color, clouds, lines of light, etc, and the one void sky we see there are normalish looking plants), standing water in the tunnel layer and running in layer 5, guns that were (probably) not installed by Mur and Co, ... that is all I can think of right now, but the point is that they DO feel like submachines (and the game is called submachine as Rooster has said) BUT their qualities are slightly different from that of our Subnet. In fact, it really goes to illustrate, in my mind at least, how well thought out Mateusz must have had all this to have been so consistent in his depiction of the Subnet/Core as to have avoided the very phenomenons that make the Knot so different from the Subnet.

Honestly, it had never fully occurred to me that the Knot was in the Subnet in the first place. That green karma portal seemed to already be taking us out of our own Layer for one thing. Secondly, the Knot seems too atmospherically different to me. They are all submachines, I think, but as Mateusz has said in one of his quotes ... crap I can't find it! He said something like some submachines have been MOVED. I think he indicates he means moved out of the Subnet.

Edit: ah, here it is:

March 27, 2007 6:43 am
hmm, I always thought that the loop in submachine3 was some sort of a passage. Just a path, a road to something or somewhere. As for other theories. Submachines were created here on earth in the early 20th century. I agree that all of them are in one dimension. But on the other hand it is also possible that some of them were taken out of this world and put SOMEWHERE ELSE.

either case, i think you're quite ready for playing submachin4 and we should dicuss this further after you play s4.

That would suggest that Submachines can exist in places other than the Subnet. Yet interestingly, there is a slight inconstancy in that he later says the Subnet began in the early 20th century, but that was not the first Submachine... Anyway...

To elaborate on the Knot's atmosphere being different, there are many things there we have not seen in the Subnet: phenomenons in the sky (color, clouds, lines of light, etc, and the one void sky we see there are normalish looking plants), standing water in the tunnel layer and running in layer 5, guns that were (probably) not installed by Mur and Co, ... that is all I can think of right now, but the point is that they DO feel like submachines (and the game is called submachine as Rooster has said) BUT their qualities are slightly different from that of our Subnet. In fact, it really goes to illustrate, in my mind at least, how well thought out Mateusz must have had all this to have been so consistent in his depiction of the Subnet/Core as to have avoided the very phenomenons that make the Knot so different from the Subnet.

Edit 2: blarg! What happened? Never had an EDIT post error before...

Honestly, it had never fully occurred to me that the Knot was in the Subnet in the first place. That green karma portal seemed to already be taking us out of our own Layer for one thing. Secondly, the Knot seems too atmospherically different to me. They are all submachines, I think, but as Mateusz has said in one of his quotes ... crap I can't find it! He said something like some submachines have been MOVED. I think he indicates he means moved out of the Subnet. That would suggest that Submachines can exist in places other than the Subnet. Anyway...

Find that quote, man! That may be the hinge to this whole idea. (*sees you posted it in the second post*)

We're not sure of where Mur's Karma Portals can extend - We know he can go out to the Outer Rim with them, but to go out of the SubNet completely? And why would the Explorers be stationed in this "bubble" outside of the SubNet?

To elaborate on the Knot's atmosphere being different, there are many things there we have not seen in the Subnet: phenomenons in the sky (color, clouds, lines of light, etc, and the one void sky we see there are normalish looking plants), standing water in the tunnel layer and running in layer 5, guns that were (probably) not installed by Mur and Co, ... that is all I can think of right now, but the point is that they DO feel like submachines (and the game is called submachine as Rooster has said) BUT their qualities are slightly different from that of our Subnet. In fact, it really goes to illustrate, in my mind at least, how well thought out Mateusz must have had all this to have been so consistent in his depiction of the Subnet/Core as to have avoided the very phenomenons that make the Knot so different from the Subnet.

Actually, you have a great point there - Sun, water. Maybe we are out of the SubNet...

Or maybe we're on top of the SubNet. Imagine the SubNet is Earth. The Core and the SubNet itself are below the Surface, and the Knot and the Layers are floating right above it! Like the Layers of the Earth's Atmosphere.

I agree that all of them are in one dimension. But on the other hand it is also possible that some of them were taken out of this world and put SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Almost a 6-year old quote...Wow. So maybe the Submachines can be rearranged throughout the Layers, but:

I agree that all of them are in one dimension

He said "possible," he does love playing with our minds...

That would suggest that Submachines can exist in places other than the Subnet

But we're also not sure if he was referring to the Layers and not something completely out of the SubNet. He's talking about Dimensions, Layers = Dimensions, and it could be assumed he was hinting at Layers.

Edit 2: blarg! What happened? Never had an EDIT post error before...

Interesting...I've had a Post Error when someone (usually you XD) posts at the same time as me, but never seen this yet.

why would the Explorers be stationed in this "bubble" outside of the SubNet?

I don't think they always were. Ooo, you've uncovered more unstated assumptions. Seriously, are you called rooster because of your tenacious and precise tendency to peck things into pieces, perhaps to scratch until hidden things are uncovered!??? @XD

So yeah, I've always thought this without realizing it and you've just uncovered it:

1st, I was actually thinking the Layer 5 people, at least some of them, ARE the Architects. They aren't so much "Explorers" in this case, like Mur and Co, but "solvers." So the dialogue about "who needs gods with Architects like these," would be between either between two junior or underling Architects, or that is a dialogue between some of Mur's men who are in awe of what the Architects do.

While the DefSys was up, the Architects had no need to close the connection between our local Core and the other 6 Cores. This connection would have been the Knot as the Plan was ruined. When the DefSys went down, the Beamers shut down... or perhaps the Beamers reset every time someone enters the Temple. And as I've said in my newest theory, the Knot was at least a demonstration of the Plan and was also either designed to act as yet another DefSys, or retrofitted to be such.

So, let's see here. Liz is just hanging out in the Core until Mur comes. Why isn't she with the rest of the Architects/Layer 5 people? Not sure... or perhaps most of them are with her until they all evacuate. The notes in Sub8seem to indicate that at least some are just hanging out in the Loop... unless they are all from Mur's team, which I'm not sure I believe.

So to clarify, there would be two posibilities:
1. Layer 1 of the Knot is within a part of our local Core (Yet if so, why was the green portal so dramatically long?).
2. Our local Subnet is all in a single dimensional bubble, though it is probably filled with other bubbles (ala Loops and infinite corridors). The Knot is in a separate bubble and that is where Liz's escape pod "jumped" to (so yes, I'm now also assuming that her escape pod has some kind of teleport drive in it) and Mur's portal led to.

The thing is, we get to see the Layer viewer in Sub7 displaying the green portal streaking out of the local Layer, which has always indicated to me that Liz's ship and Mur's portal left the normal Subnet space behind. The aesthetics of the Knot seem to bear this out, as I've said. At any rate, it seems clear that the other layers of the Knot are not in the Subnet because Mateusz has indicated that the other layers might not even have a Subnet (hence, again, the change in aesthetics, I presume.

Ahem... ok, so to get back on task, trying to answer your question!

I think the main idea is that the Architects, if that is who they are, are not interested in exploring the Subnet an it's Core because it is the failed copy. They station people there, like Liz, for research and other purposes, but the Architects are, or where, doubtlessly stretched out over all the layers trying to figure out a way to salvage the Plan.

So, that reminds me of something that has been brought up: if the Subnet/Core is such a failed copy, why haven't they tried to erase it or just let Mur's portals destroy it? I'm guessing that while they don't care one bit about the Subnet, they do still care about our local Core. It is still vital to revitalizing the Plan.

And why was Mur so interested in exploring the Subnet, other than just to escape from the Architects? Well, I would guess he learned quote a bit they might not know about the possibilities of Submachine functions by exploring the wild and chaotic Submachines of the Subnet.

(Hey Rooster, didn't you say you and Vortex had been talking about Submachine programming somewhere? I can't find where you mentioned it...)

I don't think they always were. Ooo, you've uncovered more unstated assumptions. Seriously, are you called rooster because of your tenacious and precise tendency to peck things into pieces, perhaps to scratch until hidden things are uncovered!??? @XD

XD! Have to make assumptions to reach conclusions

1st, I was actually thinking the Layer 5 people, at least some of them, ARE the Architects. They aren't so much "Explorers" in this case, like Mur and Co, but "solvers." So the dialogue about "who needs gods with Architects like these," would be between either between two junior or underling Architects, or that is a dialogue between some of Mur's men who are in awe of what the Architects do.

Interesting...And Liz is a Solver,

If he's the explorer, she's the solver

So it's possible, even though we wouldn't know one way or the other at this point.

While the DefSys was up, the Architects had no need to close the connection between our local Core and the other 6 Cores. This connection would have been the Knot as the Plan was ruined. When the DefSys went down, the Beamers shut down... or perhaps the Beamers reset every time someone enters the Temple. And as I've said in my newest theory, the Knot was at least a demonstration of the Plan and was also either designed to act as yet another DefSys, or retrofitted to be such.

And I agreed with that theory - The Knot being a "man-made DefSys," as I put it. I see though - You're saying we needed to reactivate the Beamers because the DefSys connected with them, thus shutting them down when the DefSys shut down. Besides Game Mechanics, why would we have to find Beamer parts then and not just the energy sources to fuel the Beamers? I think someone, like Mur, shut them down in order to stop us from coming after him. Either conclusion is possible, or even another.

So, let's see here. Liz is just hanging out in the Core until Mur comes. Why isn't she with the rest of the Architects/Layer 5 people? Not sure... or perhaps most of them are with her until they all evacuate. The notes in Sub8seem to indicate that at least some are just hanging out in the Loop... unless they are all from Mur's team, which I'm not sure I believe.

To hide from Mur - Liz probably is/was the "Guardian of the Core" since all others were doomed to be taken revenge against Mur. Liz was the only one Mur was even slightly friends with (i.e. Lighthouse Notes.) Once she awaits Mur to find his way back into The Core (in the slight possibility that he does, even though she didn't believe he would), she immediately goes to warn those hiding from Mur.

Another possibility is she isn't in the Layers because she's supposed to help "The Player," and they chose Liz to do so (besides hiding from Mur's revenge) because she may be the best person to help The Player. (or - Game Mechanics - because Mateusz wanted us to hear from Liz and not some random person who can help us.)

1. Layer 1 of the Knot is within a part of our local Core (Yet if so, why was the green portal so dramatically long?).

Layer 1 is everything we saw Pre-Sub8, I believe. Everything else might be (or definitely is) a copy.

"Dramatically long" - Possibly Game Mechanics yet again, because it was the ending of Sub7.

2. Our local Subnet is all in a single dimensional bubble, though it is probably filled with other bubbles (ala Loops and infinite corridors). The Knot is in a separate bubble and that is where Liz's escape pod "jumped" to (so yes, I'm now also assuming that her escape pod has some kind of teleport drive in it) and Mur's portal led to.

Too many bubbles XD I used "bubble" in the sense that it's a gap between two Dimensions, not exactly a dimension of its own though - Doctor Who, The Doctor's Wife, is what I'm referring to, being on the edge of the Universe, but not in the next Dimension. I think the Loops and corridors are part of the "single dimensional bubble," being the SubNet, and, according to your Theory, the Knot is a bubble off of that Universe. (Even though, personally, I still slightly believe, as Mateusz indicated, each Layer is its own seperate Dimension, no "bubbles" involved.)

At any rate, it seems clear that the other layers of the Knot are not in the Subnet because Mateusz has indicated that the other layers might not even have a Subnet (hence, again, the change in aesthetics, I presume.

This was Mateusz's quote, which I assume you're referring to:

hmm, I always thought that the loop in submachine3 was some sort of a passage. Just a path, a road to something or somewhere. As for other theories. Submachines were created here on earth in the early 20th century. I agree that all of them are in one dimension. But on the other hand it is also possible that some of them were taken out of this world and put SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Couldn't we assume that the "somewhere else" in question is referring to the other Layers, in which there are (or must be) other version of the SubNet? Especially that early in the Series? However, if he really was referring to how other Layers don't have SubNets, then I'll admit I'm wrong

I think the main idea is that the Architects, if that is who they are, are not interested in exploring the Subnet an it's Core because it is the failed copy. They station people there, like Liz, for research and other purposes, but the Architects are, or where, doubtlessly stretched out over all the layers trying to figure out a way to salvage the Plan.

I like that thought....However! If they knew The Core was a failed copy, why do they care that Mur's destroying it? Is it because destroying The Core ends up destroying The Plan? And if so, with Mur knowing that, why would Mur even destroy the Core knowing it destroys The Plan? It's a paradox - According to this thought, neither Mur nor the Architects want to destroy The Plan, yet they both know that The Core is a failed copy, so they should destroy it. Right?

So, that reminds me of something that has been brought up: if the Subnet/Core is such a failed copy, why haven't they tried to erase it or just let Mur's portals destroy it? I'm guessing that while they don't care one bit about the Subnet, they do still care about our local Core. It is still vital to revitalizing the Plan.

Son of a...*facepalm* Alright, I'm keeping my thought above there anyway XD I guess keeping the Core would thus keep The Plan, but then why would Mur want to destroy The Plan in its entirety?

And why was Mur so interested in exploring the Subnet, other than just to escape from the Architects? Well, I would guess he learned quote a bit they might not know about the possibilities of Submachine functions by exploring the wild and chaotic Submachines of the Subnet.

If you had a Karma Arm, wouldn't you explore the far reaches of the SubNet? XD

(Hey Rooster, didn't you say you and Vortex had been talking about Submachine programming somewhere? I can't find where you mentioned it...)

Former PastelForum, around the end of the "Sub9 Theories and Suggestions" Thread.

And I agreed with that theory - The Knot being a "man-made DefSys," as I put it. I see though - You're saying we needed to reactivate the Beamers because the DefSys connected with them, thus shutting them down when the DefSys shut down. Besides Game Mechanics, why would we have to find Beamer parts then and not just the energy sources to fuel the Beamers? I think someone, like Mur, shut them down in order to stop us from coming after him. Either conclusion is possible, or even another.

I was thinking that once the Temple is entered there is an automatic shut down of the Beamers. However, I think you may be right about Mur trashing them. But as you said, this gets into the whole game mechanics/3rd wall issue, which bothers me. Mateusz plays it a little too loose and dirty for my personal taste, but then I take things too seriously. XD However, I really hope in the end most of the game mechanics issues actually have good explanations.

To hide from Mur - Liz probably is/was the "Guardian of the Core" since all others were doomed to be taken revenge against Mur. Liz was the only one Mur was even slightly friends with (i.e. Lighthouse Notes.)

Ah, very good point, I like that.

Layer 1 is everything we saw Pre-Sub8, I believe. Everything else might be (or definitely is) a copy.

Ok, that makes the most since with Sub8, I just haven't been willing to come out and say it, because just as soon as I do, someone will scream, "but we don't know that for sure!" XD

"Dramatically long" - Possibly Game Mechanics yet again, because it was the ending of Sub7.

That can become a too convenient excuse. :/ So you think what, that the first layer of the Knot is in the Core?

Too many bubbles XD

It's just a convenient term. My view is that Layer 1 encompasses earth, the universe, all that, and the subnet is in a bubble within our Layer. I talk more about that in my latest theory, the idea of the hour glass shaped fold in space. That is what I mean by bubble. Here, I'll just quote myself:

Most likely, submachines inhabit pocket dimensions, or bubble universes, within their local layer. Think of a black hole, where the normal layer of reality is stretched like a funnel. Now picture that instead of rounding out to form a bottom, it flares out like a balloon, or an hour glass. This bubble is the space the submachines inhabit, first the core, then later the Subnet as it expanded uncontrollably. Notice, though, that there is an opening into the Submachine space. Perhaps there are more than one of these funnel like entrances. The question is, is there a kind of gravity, figuratively or otherwise, that makes it hard to get back out.

But we talked before about how the subnet is probably not infinite because then the defsys would have to be infinitly long. However, the subnet still could be infinite if you count bubble dimensions within the subnet, like the Loop, or the infinite blue corridor.
You use bubble to mean a gap? Does gap even have meaning? If your outside of a dimension, I would think you are by definition beyond space/time, ie, your in a place that doesn't exist.

This was Mateusz's quote, which I assume you're referring to:

Nope, this quote:

no. all subnet is one dimention, not 999 dimentions.
there are 7 dimentions and I'd suppose - there are 7 versions of the same subnet. or not. maybe in one reality they didnt create subnet, and just core remains. there could be a dimention where the core is not damaged. who knows.

Interesting quote. Is he being deliberately obtuse about it, or will it just not make a difference to the story of the game?

I was thinking that once the Temple is entered there is an automatic shut down of the Beamers. However, I think you may be right about Mur trashing them. But as you said, this gets into the whole game mechanics/3rd wall issue, which bothers me. Mateusz plays it a little too loose and dirty for my personal taste, but then I take things too seriously. XD However, I really hope in the end most of the game mechanics issues actually have good explanations.

I'm sure he will, or else there'd be too many plot-holes XD

About "The Temple entered - Beamer shutdown" - It's possible, but another DefSys, even if it's not one of the typical DefSys? It's like there's DefSys everywhere you go

Ok, that makes the most since with Sub8, I just haven't been willing to come out and say it, because just as soon as I do, someone will scream, "but we don't know that for sure!" XD

Even if they do mention that, it's still considered a possibility and can't be Debunked

That can become a too convenient excuse. :/ So you think what, that the first layer of the Knot is in the Core?

True, I can't really think of any other logical explanation though The question stands: Why would the Karma Portal at the end of Sub7 be "dramatically long" if it's really not that far away? Besides it meaning it is far away, it could be said to add to the mysterious factor of the Series.

As for the first layer of the Knot being in the Core: To be honest, your Theory about the knot being a whole seperate entity off of the SubNet is starting to get to me, so there's two (of many) conclusions:

1) The Knot is The Plan, and something's happened (Mur) to The Plan that got it into this state.

2) Your Theory - The Knot is another part that contains all the Layers, off of the original SubNet.

...But we talked before about how the subnet is probably not infinite because then the defsys would have to be infinitly long. However, the subnet still could be infinite if you count bubble dimensions within the subnet, like the Loop, or the infinite blue corridor.
You use bubble to mean a gap? Does gap even have meaning? If your outside of a dimension, I would think you are by definition beyond space/time, ie, your in a place that doesn't exist.

Ah, I see. And maybe "gap" is the wrong word in this case - It's like an actual bubble straddling both Dimensional Planes, in the actual edge seperating both Dimensions. Now that I think on it, it may not be the best explanation, but "pocket dimensions" - Now those may be a better term, so we do have the same idea, I probably misrepresented it XD

no. all subnet is one dimention, not 999 dimentions.
there are 7 dimentions and I'd suppose - there are 7 versions of the same subnet. or not. maybe in one reality they didnt create subnet, and just core remains. there could be a dimention where the core is not damaged. who knows.

Interesting quote. Is he being deliberately obtuse about it, or will it just not make a difference to the story of the game?

I see...."All SubNet is one Dimension" - Could he then be referring to how all SubNet is one Layer? Because he brought up 999 in the sense that each Location is a Dimension, which it's not. So there can be 999 Layers, each containing its own version of the SubNet. That's what I believe he's referring to - Each Layer has its own version of reality, its own version of the SubNet, which is why all the Layers are different.

I don't know how big a difference it makes to the game, but maybe it was a subtle hint as to how to look at the Layers.