Meditations

Boingo
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Re: Meditations

Post by Boingo »

English is currently affecting all the languages, basically. I don't think there is a single one that has been studied that doesn't have a single loanword from English.
And where did all the English words come from? Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Welsh, Latin etc.
The scientific paper is a good example of another medium that English is taking over, by the way. English is the language of science.
And whilst Latin should be long dead, it's now the mother language of Medicine too.
I honestly doubt this. Chinese is hard to spell (and to type into a computer, which good to keep in mind), even harder to speak, and the dialects vary hugely.
Technically, 98% of the Chinese speaking population speaks Mandarin. And the characters stay the same. And did you consider the fact that the average ten year old Chinese Student can write 80 characters a minute on paper, and an adult at 100+, and on a computer using PinYin, over 300+ words a minute? And your opinion will be biased on that which you speak English.
Chinese is also more context based than English, which might leave things ambiguous for no reason. Obviously Chinese does have benefits over English too, but I don't know much about them. Chinese is more gender neutral, I believe. That is one thing.
Nope. Chinese is definitely gender specific, as well as one of the most context specific languages of all. For example, in English, to state your Mother's Father, you say 'Maternal Grandfather'. In Chinese, you can slip every single descriptive unto a two character word, and the attachments in another two.
Mandarin is also a Mother Language in the East, and has one of the largest and most developed vocabularies of all.

Mandarin 12.44%
Spanish 4.85%
English 4.83%
Arabic 3.25%
Hindi 2.68%
Bengali 2.66%
Portuguese 2.62%
Russian 2.12%
Japanese 1.80%
German 1.33%
Javanese 1.25%
Others 61.17%
Just for reference.
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Anteroinen
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Re: Meditations

Post by Anteroinen »

Boingo wrote:
English is currently affecting all the languages, basically. I don't think there is a single one that has been studied that doesn't have a single loanword from English.
And where did all the English words come from? Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Welsh, Latin etc.
The scientific paper is a good example of another medium that English is taking over, by the way. English is the language of science.
And whilst Latin should be long dead, it's now the mother language of Medicine too.
All the languages you mention are descendants of Proto-Indo-European. Does that mean that they are still speaking Proto-Indo-European? No. Words like confident or diarrhoea are very much English today, not Latin or PIE. While Latin is a peculiarity among dead languages, in that it is actively studied and even spoken by some, it is a fact that languages die. Entirely. Surely, the leave behind interesting substrates of loanwords, but otherwise they are gone. There is no doubt that when a Sami language dies – for example – it is dead. It will not be a mother tongue to a field of reindeer hearding or anything else, it will be gone. Neither is it likely people will try to revive it again, since it is hard to keep the ones that still remain alive as it is.
I honestly doubt this. Chinese is hard to spell (and to type into a computer, which good to keep in mind), even harder to speak, and the dialects vary hugely.
Technically, 98% of the Chinese speaking population speaks Mandarin. And the characters stay the same. And did you consider the fact that the average ten year old Chinese Student can write 80 characters a minute on paper, and an adult at 100+, and on a computer using PinYin, over 300+ words a minute? And your opinion will be biased on that which you speak English.
Technically, yes. Then there are the other Chinese languages. And the dialects of those, which make the Chinese use Chinese subtitles on many TV shows. I did take those things into account though, I know very well how Chinese is typed with the help of pinyin for instance. This, however, takes prowess in computers to learn to do (surprisingy few people know how to manipulate their language settings and use IMEs), not to mention learning pinyin, which most people do learn along with the Chinese admittedly. English does not have this problem.

I am also a bit skeptical on their ability to write that much, considering I don't think I can sketch 80 letters in a minute. At least if I'm actually writing, not making a line of A's.

I also did not say that Chinese is harder to speak just because I think it sounds weird or something, I did have a reason for that. The tones are very hard to get your vocal chords to process fluently, add to that the funky things they do when they meet each other. Or when you are not reciting poetry and saying each one in an unusually clear voice. The consonants of Chinese aren't the simplest either, not to mention different registers merge certain ones. On the same vein, English does have an atrocious vowel system, but mispronunciation of the vowels is rarely a barrier for understanding, due to vowel length and stuff like that.

Also, while certain things in the hanzi themselves give an inkling as to what the character means or how it is said, the system is not at all phonemic. Neither is English, notoriously, but at least is has a system. The system's logic has gone since people still spell things like people did centuries ago, but there are still guidelines that will help you pronounce the word correctly 85% or the time.
Chinese is also more context based than English, which might leave things ambiguous for no reason. Obviously Chinese does have benefits over English too, but I don't know much about them. Chinese is more gender neutral, I believe. That is one thing.


Nope. Chinese is definitely gender specific, as well as one of the most context specific languages of all. For example, in English, to state your Mother's Father, you say 'Maternal Grandfather'. In Chinese, you can slip every single descriptive unto a two character word, and the attachments in another two.

Mandarin is also a Mother Language in the East, and has one of the largest and most developed vocabularies of all.

Mandarin 12.44%
Spanish 4.85%
English 4.83%
Arabic 3.25%
Hindi 2.68%
Bengali 2.66%
Portuguese 2.62%
Russian 2.12%
Japanese 1.80%
German 1.33%
Javanese 1.25%
Others 61.17%
Just for reference.
Sorry about the gender stuff, I should have checked it before saying it. Although, looking at Wikipedia, it says: 他/她/它 – tā – he/she/it. This basically means that only the written register has a distinctive gender.

What you mention is not an example of being contextually specific (rather it is an example of Asian culture, since most languages in the area have these complex family term systems – or perhaps it is an interesting piece of derivational morphology, but if that is what you are after English does that too [but is not Inuit]). In Chinese you don't necessarily have to mark a noun for plurality, for instance, right? Is it not possible or even common to omit tense (in favor of aspect, perhaps)? I do know that Chinese is pro drop, with no personal – or other – conjugation, which leaves more room for ambiguity.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "mother tongue of the east" or that chart. Please elaborate.
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ENIHCAMBUS
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Re: Meditations

Post by ENIHCAMBUS »

OnyxIonVortex wrote:I also don't think we should base our moral principles in some supposed "natural law". If some results are generally true in natural environments, that doesn't mean that any attempts to deviate from those results will inevitably fail. If that were true there would be no variation and evolution wouldn't have happened, since we would all be already "the fittest", and every ecosystem would only have one type of being, the one who has adapted the most. Similarly, societies that deviate from those "laws" aren't necessarily bound to fail.

We are not dominated by our genetics, we also depend on the environment, and we can change the environment to fit us (buildings, medicine, technology, etc.), instead of having to fit with the environment, as most animals have to do.
"The survival of the fittest" its just a sentence. :p
The fail is that when the actual law was posted, much people went crazy with, then when WW2 ended, it was later neglected. In Nature things work on cycles, and breaking causes to much bad consequences.
But I agree that humans, and posibly other smart species, evolve at some point that all the adaptations to a specific environment, are changed by a great brain capacity suficent to create science and technology. But I don't agree that humans have to change environment, they just have to adapt to it using science and technology.
The actual world is a time bomb. Do you think that all what happens right now is natural?
I know that is natural for smart species to create technology, which makes it natural too. But the current world have deviated from the natural way and now is a complete chaos. Since the Universe its not perfect (I agree), things like this are posible, and this is what its happening with the world (It just a matter of time for the things to end, and start to again).

But to prove this theory, I should see how things works for other smart species, and thats not posible right now. :p

I think I know what triggered the chaotic deviation, but I don't want to say, it. The worst result of the revelation will be posibly a third world war.
So, I'm just standing right here for the aliens to say something about this.

PD: Why have already 2 debates in the same thread, what to do?
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The Abacus
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Re: Meditations

Post by The Abacus »

Oleander wrote:Also, people are a part of nature. It is literally impossible for people to 'mess with the way nature should happen' because everything we do is a part of nature's progression.
Technically yes, but the human race does seem to be a disruptor in the normal cycles of nature :?
Anteroinen wrote:Does that mean that they are still speaking Proto-Indo-European? No. Words like confident or diarrhoea are very much English today, not Latin or PIE.
Why not? Just because people consider many words as 'English' doesn't mean that the words aren't PIE. Both confident and diarrhoea are words derived from PIE root languages (scroll down for the etymology in each of the links). The words may not be part of another language specifically, but it is still PIE as it is descended from other PIE languages.
ENIHCAMBUS wrote:The fail is that when the actual law was posted, much people went crazy with, then when WW2 ended, it was later neglected. In Nature things work on cycles, and breaking causes to much bad consequences.
But I agree that humans, and possibly other smart species, evolve at some point that all the adaptations to a specific environment, are changed by a great brain capacity sufficient to create science and technology. But I don't agree that humans have to change environment, they just have to adapt to it using science and technology.
The actual world is a time bomb. Do you think that all what happens right now is natural?
I know that is natural for smart species to create technology, which makes it natural too. But the current world have deviated from the natural way and now is a complete chaos. Since the Universe its not perfect (I agree), things like this are possible, and this is what its happening with the world (It just a matter of time for the things to end, and start to again).
First we have determine whether human interference is part of nature (which in technicality is) or should be classes under something else (which to me seems more accurate). In reality there are two 'natures' being referred to in this conversation (Guideline #1: Define your terms, mainly in the case of using terms in unique ways or when it seems someone is misunderstanding you, but any time it will help make the discussion clearer without adding too much needless bulk. – Redafro) and are as follows:

1. The environment
2. The laws that determine the progression of the former – this includes the laws that may be based on chance (e.g. natural selection)

According to the first definition the human race would classified as an interference – there have previous dominant species, but none that could threaten all possible life on the planet. (Note: first definition favours the survival of the ecosystem as a whole)

According to the second definition, it is perfectly normal for a species to cause a mass extinction of life on a planet. (Note: second definition favours progress, regardless of it's effects)
ENIHCAMBES wrote:But to prove this theory, I should see how things works for other smart species, and thats not posible right now. :p
Good luck :P
ENIHCAMBUS wrote:PD: Why have already 2 debates in the same thread, what to do?
There's nothing wrong with having two discussions going on at once.
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Re: Meditations

Post by ENIHCAMBUS »

With Nature I mean both things.
Also, Humans are triggering a fast and complete mass extention, I agree that in Nature those things tend to happen, but they happen slowly and constantly.

Nothing is perfect, and thats why they are problems like this. Still, everything can be repaired with enough time. :P
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Re: Meditations

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ENIHCAMBUS wrote: I know because I remember Vurn's and Borys' attemp to make a 100% polish thread, that was, at the end, banned by moderator
Hah, well, no. Borys made that. I opposed it. I mean, yeah, Polish is beautiful and everything, yeah, okay, cool, whatever. But damn, this is an English forum.

English becoming the only one of world's languages? I doubt it. Look at the differences between dialects of English spoken in Britain and stuff like AAVE, South African English, Australian English. Sure, it's not like those are mutually incomprehensible - but not too much time has gone since those dialects began branching off, and sound changes have already took place and new words began sprouting. (This is the point where I realize I don't really know much about that, but yeah, whatever.) The differences between those would be much bigger, I'm sure, if it hadn't been for globalization and development of quicker and easier transport, but unless the world is really going to become nearly-literal *global village* then dialects are going to be created and new languages are going to form. Wow this thing I have written here sure sucks. Bleh.
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Re: Meditations

Post by Anteroinen »

The Abacus wrote:
Anteroinen wrote:Does that mean that they are still speaking Proto-Indo-European? No. Words like confident or diarrhoea are very much English today, not Latin or PIE.
Why not? Just because people consider many words as 'English' doesn't mean that the words aren't PIE. Both confident and diarrhoea are words derived from PIE root languages (scroll down for the etymology in each of the links). The words may not be part of another language specifically, but it is still PIE as it is descended from other PIE languages.
I know they are from PIE, that is why I chose them. I meant that they are not PIE-proper, a part of the language itself – silly English which thinks languages are adjectives. For one, they are not the same words, they have greatly been altered and they are also derivations. PIE no longer exists in any other way as remnants in various grammatical structures, like Spanish conjugation and German declension. The language is gone. Loaned words are just that – loaned words. They have moved into another language and stopped being a part of that language. Same goes for inherited words.

I think nobody will argue that the Finnish word ranta is still Swedish, because it comes from the word strand, or the Russia is a Swedish word because it originated in Swedish? Even enchilada said by an English person is no longer Spanish. The fact that these are originally PIE words, doesn't make them not English, Spanish or Finnish either.
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ENIHCAMBUS
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Re: Meditations

Post by ENIHCAMBUS »

i agree. take the word "chocolate" for example, its a mutationof the Aztec word "chocolatl". But "chocolate" is no longer an Aztec word.

BTW, the things have been discovered on the recent years have the name of they discovered, and usually those words have no mutation in the different languajes.
So, whats is the languaje for those new scientific words?
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Re: Meditations

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ENIHCAMBUS wrote: BTW, the things have been discovered on the recent years have the name of they discovered, and usually those words have no mutation in the different languajes.
So, whats is the languaje for those new scientific words?
Well, most languages have established patterns to fit new scientific words into their language, which cause the words to change. Consider:

English: Geology
Swedish: Geologi
Spanish: Geología
Turkish: Jeolojia
Ranska: Géologie

Geology might have originated in scientific Latin or Greek, but many contemporary words are purely constructed in English, by taking elements from old languages like this. Then it is loaned.

When a word stops being a word of another language is an interesting theoretical question, obviously. Imagine a language class, where someone says: "Today I went to the shop and bought a, umm, uhh, słoń?" Obviously everybody would agree that słoń is still Polish here, nobody perceives it as an English word. But if the word were to start to use it in conversations regardless of it loaned nature, it would surely be English. In time, people might start typing it slony or swony and the pronunciation would shift and voilá, we have an integrated loanword. The limit is hazy.

Pizza has seen this happen in many languages for emaple. In Italian it is pizza and pronounced more or less /pit.tsa/ but if you go to Finnish you have /pitsa/ (which is how it is usually even spelled) and in Polish you have /pitstsa/, which is still spelled pizza and English has /piːtsə/ for the same thing. Yet nobody thinks they are speaking Italian when they say pizza anymore. Why would they feel like that? Should the Italians feel like they are speaking Lombardic when they say pizza? Because that is one of the possibilities for the origin of that word.

By that logic people should see absolutely no – or at least very little – difference between the words fission, bite and pizza. Or mantra, Mandarin, automatic and mental. Or any of the many similar sets.
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Re: Meditations

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Anteroinen wrote: I know they are from PIE, that is why I chose them. I meant that they are not PIE-proper, a part of the language itself – silly English which thinks languages are adjectives. For one, they are not the same words, they have greatly been altered and they are also derivations. PIE no longer exists in any other way as remnants in various grammatical structures, like Spanish conjugation and German declension. The language is gone. Loaned words are just that – loaned words. They have moved into another language and stopped being a part of that language. Same goes for inherited words.

I think nobody will argue that the Finnish word ranta is still Swedish, because it comes from the word strand, or the Russia is a Swedish word because it originated in Swedish? Even enchilada said by an English person is no longer Spanish. The fact that these are originally PIE words, doesn't make them not English, Spanish or Finnish either.
Oh, I see now.
ENIHCAMBUS wrote:With Nature I mean both things.
You didn't mean both definitions at once though.
ENIHCAMBUS wrote:Still, everything can be repaired with enough time. :P
Not necessarily, if the sun turns into a supernova overnight, the Earth – and all life that inhabits it – will be lost with no chance of repair (this is an exaggerated example). Life may exist somewhere else, but Earth would be no more.
ENIHCAMBUS wrote:So, whats is the languaje for those new scientific words?
Which ones? Species names? Phenomena? Something else?
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