Meditations

[Anteroinen]

Ever heard of a salary? They work, they should get paid. That, however, isn't the customers' responsibility. It's the employers responsibility.

Tell that to the big corporations and CEO's that run these restaurants then.

It has up until now been my understanding that corporations do pay a salary to their workers. Now, I do think waiters should have a better salary, but it shouldn't be dependent on their tips. Tipping is random, which makes your life unnecessarily unstable financially.

I admit I don't really get this tipping phenomenon, having never been subjected to it directly, so maybe I'm just naïve. I just thought of tipping as this relatively rare, random event, not something that is expected at every cafeteria or which is regulated by bills and calculations of how many per cent of the price it is suitable to tip.

[Oleander]

So what do you guys think about child discipline? I know in parts of Europe spanking is illegal now, and I know many who agree with this, though I have noticed that in studies of this issue, calm spanking followed by comfort is never a category, but only angry spanking and hitting is. I can't decide if I should get past my hatred of spanking so that I can more effectively break out of the negative cycles me and my family get into, or what. I'm really tired of feeling like a horrible father though.

If you are going to be calm, why bother with physical assault at all? In any case, I don't think it's an appropriate way to reprimand a child for doing something inappropriate, because they don't learn anything helpful from the experience. They still don't know *why* it is bad after that. Worse still, people who are hit as children, even (or perhaps especially) the ones who don't get bruises, establish physical punishment as an appropriate way of reprimanding their children, and they may not be as controlled with it. Note the classic "My parents hit me and I turned out fine."

The problem with 3-year-olds in this is that they are literally incapable of making logical connections. They can't really 'understand' things yet. I've thought about these issues myself and pretty much decided that I'm going to rely entirely on discussion, but I'm not sure how I will get a 3-year-old to listen to me. There are probably books on this kind of thing.

I admit I don't really get this tipping phenomenon, having never been subjected to it directly, so maybe I'm just naïve. I just thought of tipping as this relatively rare, random event, not something that is expected at every cafeteria or which is regulated by bills and calculations of how many per cent of the price it is suitable to tip.

In large parts of the U.S. not tipping your waiter/waitress is almost equivalent to telling them "fuck you", in the same way that people only do it when they're upset, and doing it to someone who hasn't wronged you will make all your coworkers tell you you are a terrible person.

[borys610]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38

[Raxas]

Topic shift: child discipline.

When you first meet my son, you might for the first 5 minutes think he is no more intense then the average 3 year old, as this is his short lived shy faze. However, after that you will almost always begin to be subjected to the sheer joy of running, laughing, screaming, jumping, wrestling, punching, acting, building, breaking, leading, dancing, singing, chatting, and... weirding that is my son. For the next 5 hours. Proud? Why yes, I am. (He can also follow 6-12 year old lego designs I might add... before he destroys his creation to start again.) He can definitely be a joy... and an extreme trial of patients. As my daughter has made her stunning way into my life (the most rapturously gorgeous smiling 4 month old ever I might add) my son's vying for the attention of the entire world has only increased... and my patience has decreased.

I go by the axiom "violence is the last resort of the incompetent," found in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. Part of this is because I simply don't want to use spanking: I want to use reason and patience and have a peaceful household centered around that. I of course believe that a child should never be hit in anger or even spanked in anger, but I think a "gentle" spank delivered calmly and followed by comfort is not harmful and can be effective. However, I would prefer not to. I have attempted to some small degree reasoning, but my son's mind is too full of adrenalin to hear me 98% of the time. He fidgets, laughs, cries, and squirms instead. I was using a good method called 1-2-3 magic, where you count each instance of a behavior you've stated is not ok, then give the child a time out at 3. After the time out, your suppose to move past the offense without comment. This works to some degree when I'm really on my game and strict with the system, however I find myself constantly timing him out, and frankly there are many times you can't use time out after time out: bed time, time to go to work, etc. Also, he disregards every statement I make until I say "that's one" which is quite infuriating.

So, my problem is that when exhaustion sets in and patience runs out, I find myself incapable of doing any of this calmly. It turns into a negative feedback cycle, where the worse I get, the worse he gets and we both loose more and more control until I do end up yelling or spanking in anger. It is a horrible feeling and makes me feel far more than merely incompetent. Many times I've said I will just bite the bullet and use calm spanking without counting as the discipline method, for the time being at least, so as to nip the behavior in the bud. But I simply hate doing this at the same time. I'm quite frazzled to be honest. Add to this I've not been getting enough sleep and I'm working overtime in a physically demanding job, and you get quite the ugly situation.

So what do you guys think about child discipline? I know in parts of Europe spanking is illegal now, and I know many who agree with this, though I have noticed that in studies of this issue, calm spanking followed by comfort is never a category, but only angry spanking and hitting is. I can't decide if I should get past my hatred of spanking so that I can more effectively break out of the negative cycles me and my family get into, or what. I'm really tired of feeling like a horrible father though.

First of all I'd like to say that you're doing a hell of a lot better than a lot of parents I know. Regarding your lack of sleep and demanding job as an obstacle to proper child care, rather than child care being an obstacle in your life is refreshing to me. Some of my friend's have been suffering because of bad parents. A friend of my little brother's has been spending almost every weekend at the house because his parents have a broken relationship. He doesn't even want to be home because it's so uncomfortable. This isn't just petty arguments either- it got physical recently. Police were unhelpful.

So yeah, bad parenting is one of the things that rustles my jimmies. So just know that you're not a horrible father. You diminish the definition of "horrible father" by placing yourself among the ranks of bad fathers that I know.

At the same time, don't let go of your desire to do better either. That's probably one of the best attitudes I can have. Though I'm sure you don't need to be told that.

I'm not a father myself, nor am I well versed in child upbringing, but I can say that there's probably not going to be an easy or universal approach to this. Each one requires a unique approach. I have been told that the personalities and behavior of children can be quite reflective of those of his parents, so perhaps you may have posed similar challenges to your own parents at that age. So I would recommend consulting your parents for advice. Heck, I'd recommend consulting your parents for advice in most situations involving raising a child. I'm not going to pretend to know you inside and out, but you sure have me convinced that they did a damn good job with you. Your spouse's parents could also offer helpful insight too.

[Isobel The Sorceress]

@ Redafro:
You're doing just fine. Kids are active and challenge your patience and authority constantly. If you can keep your head cool, and always follow your own rules, the kids will eventually get it that you're the boss.

The 1-2-3-timeout system sounds very reasonable. Always give a fair warning first, and always follow through. If you start handing out punishments without warnings, or give warnings without punishments, the kids will learn that your word can not be trusted, and you will lose authority.

I don't approve of physical punishments. Time-outs and losing privileges work better (that's what prisons are for). I remember reading a study where they found out that kids who were punished physically only learned to lie better, so they don't get caught again.

[Rooster5man]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38

Leave it to Quentin Tarantino to answer that debate for us.

@Ant: Taalit basically said what I wanted to say. I suppose it depends on culture too, how you were raised. Not that it's a bad thing you don't look at tipping the way we do, we were raised differently in different nations and different cultures, that's the underlying factor.

And Red, I can't even help you out there, but I know he may grow out of it. Hopefully spanking doesn't always have to be the answer, but you're doing a hell of a good job considering the circumstances you're in, I'll give you that.

[Redafro]

I figured there would be at least one mainly negative response, but thanks for the encouragement to the rest of you. As I said, I prefer non-violence, but I'm not sure I agree with the response that spanking doesn't teach a child anything. At an age where, as you said Taalit, kids are incapable of making a logical conclusion (though I don't completely agree with that) an instance of mild physical pain, especially followed by comfort and encouragement, can at the very least deter bad behavior for purely practical reasons. Then instruction can come later when they are more mentally capable of understanding it. My goal is to use physical punishment minimally and end it all together as soon as I can begin reasoning with my son. We have 2 reward charts as well, plus he has lost the privilege to play with 2 of his favorite toys for a time. Frankly, I think his main problem is something like adrenalin addiction! He can't seem to stop himself sometime. He might be being willful, but if he is, it is very selective. And yes, I can remember what that was like as I was very similar, though much much more introverted. However, I unfortunately can't ask my dad, as he died when I was 14, and I can't ask my mom as she is suffering from bipolar disorder with a bit of dementia and is extremely vague when I ask her such questions.

If you are going to be calm, why bother with physical assault at all? In any case, I don't think it's an appropriate way to reprimand a child for doing something inappropriate, because they don't learn anything helpful from the experience. They still don't know *why* it is bad after that. Worse still, people who are hit as children, even (or perhaps especially) the ones who don't get bruises, establish physical punishment as an appropriate way of reprimanding their children, and they may not be as controlled with it. Note the classic "My parents hit me and I turned out fine."

I do appreciate the comments, which is why I ask, but I feel like you didn't quite get the picture. When he won't stop jumping on the couch, screaming, and in general not listening at all to any directions, when he has already had 2 time outs, is crying and screaming, and oh great now the baby is too... and since I can't reason with him, I was trying to indicate that I need a discipline method that can help eliminate such instances so that I CAN stay calm. And I've used spanking very very little, and am trying to decide if it would help deter these negative cycles he gets in to. It's amazing to me when I see families who don't have such problems and I always have to wonder, do they have some perfect psychological method... or do they just have a calm, obedient kid?

[Oleander]

I wasn't making any suggestions in that post, just discussing my opinions on the issue in general.

How do you instantaneously react to these kinds of situations? And I don't mean what you do to stop them, I mean as soon as you realize something is happening, what do you do or say?

[Raxas]

However, I unfortunately can't ask my dad, as he died when I was 14, and I can't ask my mom as she is suffering from bipolar disorder with a bit of dementia and is extremely vague when I ask her such questions.

Ah, my condolences.

I do appreciate the comments, which is why I ask, but I feel like you didn't quite get the picture. When he won't stop jumping on the couch, screaming, and in general not listening at all to any directions, when he has already had 2 time outs, is crying and screaming, and oh great now the baby is too... and since I can't reason with him, I was trying to indicate that I need a discipline method that can help eliminate such instances so that I CAN stay calm. And I've used spanking very very little, and am trying to decide if it would help deter these negative cycles he gets in to. It's amazing to me when I see families who don't have such problems and I always have to wonder, do they have some perfect psychological method... or do they just have a calm, obedient kid?

Perhaps it's not the adrenaline he's addicted to, but perhaps the attention? You just had another child come into the family, and it's not uncommon for older children to grow unruly when they no longer have your undivided attention as his or her parent. So, if he acts out of line for attention, then not paying attention to him should change the behavior. I'm not saying to allow him to go on his rampages unchecked, but rather, instead of dropping what you're doing to argue with him, send him to his room, or do something to put him by himself until he calms down. In the following hours, offer him less attention than you would had he been a good boy.
Children of that age may not have much ability to understand the world yet, but they do know what cause and effect is.

[Redafro]

Raxas, that is actually a good idea. I desire to play with my son, so it can be counter intuitive to stop playing with him when he's wild. I DO give him time outs, but when he is really wild, this doesn't help much. Maybe he is not an adrenalin; maybe I'm just projecting on him my own memories of being his age and acting the way he does. I use to get so high on being hyper that I literally couldn't stop myself from doing things I would otherwise know not to do. In those moments of total hyperactivity, I couldn't think of anything but the fun I was feeling. No one consistently worked with me to help me over come that and it actually resulted in years of me thinking I was just an idiot because I couldn't control myself. I'm hoping to save my son from that.

How do you instantaneously react to these kinds of situations? And I don't mean what you do to stop them, I mean as soon as you realize something is happening, what do you do or say?

Interestingly just talking about this stuff on the forum has made me more aware of the times I over react, and my own need to remain calm at all costs. Today for instance was an exceptionally silly day for my son once he got home, yet I was able to react calmly. Yet thinking back I realize I've been in a bit of a rut with him. If it is first thing after we have had a break from silliness (watched a movie, took a nap, etc.), I typically react in a way I would not like if I was his age: instead of calmly reminding him what not to do, I am annoyed and sound it. This slowly escalates to a time out. I hate being negative and punishing him though because I'd rather have fun with him, but I'm seeing now that I haven't been using calmness as my tool with him. Interesting. And I'm not sure I would have noticed that if I hadn't started this conversation.